> > They do, in fact, have AFB, and some use antibiotics, they just
> > don't admit it publicly (or privately).
>
> I would welcome some sort of evidence, and would be pleased to
> follow up and report back to the list for any specific information
> you may be able to provide.
 
Well, I'm merely going by stories conveyed to me by several
different Canadians who apparently learned of separate cases of
antibiotic use in NZ first hand over a span of 25 years. Names were
not used as I recall, but if they were I would not repeat them.
 
It certainly is not my intention to offend my friends in NZ.  I
realise, now that I think of it, that NZ has taken an undeserved
kicking on this list some time back (not from me).  Nor was it my
intent to give away any secrets.  I assumed that by the time I hear
something it is pretty well common knowledge.
 
I guess now that I probably should have stayed quiet about what is
apparently a pretty political matter in NZ. After this post I think
I'd better leave this topic (NZ and AFB) alone for a while regardless
of what is further said.
 
Please understand that antibiotic use in beekeeping, to me, is not a
sin and the act of using them has no emotional or moral meaning.  I
just happen to respect antibiotics as a management tool.  I've tried
the alternative and it sure did not work in my environment.
 
In that light, let's regard my original assertion as several
statements of fact and deal with it on a true/false basis:
 
"They (referring to NZ beekeepers) do, in fact, have AFB , and some
use antibiotics, they just don't admit it publicly (or privately)".
 
1.) "They do, in fact, have AFB"
 
This is obviously true.  One colony breaking down anywhere in NZ
once is all that is required to make it so, but I submit that --
from reports I've heard -- there are many more than one a year.
 
2.) "and some use antibiotics".
 
Well, this could conceivably mean that some beekeepers use them
routinely and depend on them, that some use them occasionally if
they have just burned some colonies in a yard and are afraid of
further breakdown, that some beekeepers have tried them, or even that
researchers test them under exemption.
 
I personally do not know the extent of the use.  All I know is that
on several occasions several different people have told me that they
are aware of antibiotics being used in commercial outfits in NZ.  I
am not aware of the extent of the use and am not indicating that it
is *necessarily* a widespread practice.  I simply do not know.
 
3.) "they just don't admit it publicly (or privately)".
 
This part does not require proof.  It is why I am writing this ;)
 
A Fact
------
> Antibiotic use for prevention or attempt at cure of AFB is not legal
> in New Zealand.
 
Another Fact
------------
Driving over _ Kilometers per hour is illegal on the ______ Highway.
 
If you look around, you will see that this illegal act is nonetheless
taking place _publicly_.  It is even practiced openly by those very
people who are responsible for the enforcement of these same laws.
Maybe this does not ocur in New Zealand?
 
BTW, A good indication of whether a law is taken seriously and
enforced or not is an analysis of charges and convictions.  I wonder
if there have been (m)any charges in NZ for breaking this particular
antibiotic law?  If not, you people over there are truly a remarkably
law-abiding bunch, or someone is looking the other way.
 
> Hey, Allan - have you stopped adding buckets of water to your vats
> of honey? :-)
 
Jeez, Nick, was I supposed to be putting some in?  Howcum you never
told me?  Does this mean you are still at it?   ;-)
 
Hmmm.
 
I'm not sure where you were going, or trying to go, with this, Nick.
As far as I know, *neither* practice mentioned above is particularly
reprehensible, although in some jurisdictions, either or both
may be of dubious legitimacy.
 
In actual fact, those who use certain brands of wax spinners *must*
routinely and continuously add small amounts of water to their
honey, and they do so without any shame. Further: I'm sure most
commercial packers do not rely on nature or careful blending to give
them the precisely 18.6% moisture content the we can measure on any
store shelf in Canada.
 
FWIW, I personally would not benefit from adding water to my honey
because I sell most honey bulk, and am actually penalized on a
sliding scale for moisture content. I'd have to truck the water
to the plant so they could dock me for it :(
 
> Incidentally, I think this particular thread has produced some of the
> most interesting and well-thoughtout arguments I've seen on BEE-L for
> some time.
 
I agree, and I think some of these matters have not been well enough
thought through in the bee publications (yet).  For one thing some of
these issues are pretty sensitive and some magazines are reluctant to
tackle contoversial issues.
 
Later...
 
Regards
 
Allen
 
W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper                                         VE6CFK
RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta  Canada T0M 1Y0
Internet:[log in to unmask] & [log in to unmask]
Honey. Bees, & Art <http://www.internode.net/~allend/>