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> I remember a while back there was a thread regarding pirco frames and
> you were buying a bunch of black frames.  I too, am thinking of buying
> them and I would like to know how you like your black frames compared to
> the white ones.
 
They work well.  I personally like the look better.  I have a picture of a
typical drawn frame at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ under the 'Our
Operation'  link.  Page two, I think.
 
> In addition, do they hold up well going through a steam powered
> uncapping machine?
 
I don't have one, but have never heard anything bad except that they slip
a bit when new on some inclined chain conveyors, but if intermixed with
wood, they ride fine.  And, there was a problem of some sort with them
being flexible in a spot where they are pushed through the Cowan uncapper.
 I don't know how serious it is, so you might wan to contact your uncapper
manufacturer before making the plunge.  I think Cowan may have a low cost
add-on or home fix for this.  Having said that, I'm planning to get a
Cowan line.
 
> Do you see any down sides to using them?
 
The only problem I have found -- and Murray first pointed this out -- is
that some of the frames are slightly (1/8" to 1/16") warped as they arrive
from the factory.  I took it up with my dealer, and he says it is due to
the factory removing them from the mold too quickly or some such thing. I
doubt I will receive any adjustment or compensation.
 
Frankly I don't see what they can do about it except improve the
management at the production line in the future.  It's water over the dam,
and as far as I have observed so far, not too serious.
 
If buyers specify in their purchase order that they will return any
defective product at the manufacturer's cost, I imagine that the flaw will
soon disappear.  Too late for me; mine are mostly covered with comb.
Anyhow, I'm not personally too concerned about the ones I have.  I'm
happy.  I don't want to make a fuss.  Nonetheless, I won't accept such
defects in the future.
 
Anyhow, here is my report to the manufacturer on having examined ten
frames at random from new, unopened cartons.
---
 
> I looked at a random selection of one frame each from 10 different
> cartons. The results:
 
> Of the sampled ten frames, four were what I would call perfectly flat.
> The rest were warped in some measure. The warping varied from:
 
> * slight, and at only one end of the foundation (one half frame) to *
> the whole thing being warped ~1/8"
 
> Initially, the warping seemed to vary on how the frame was held, since
> they bend a bit under their own weight.  After learning this, I was
> careful to avoid this effect.
 
> Frankly, the Pierco frames seemed about as flat -- on average -- as
> typical wax foundation after embedding, especially after consideration
> is made for badly formed wooden end bars with holes slightly out of
> place. Nonetheless, I do expect nothing less than perfection, since as
> you know we are pretty close to perfect ourself (hehehe).
 
> The worst case ones are, however, a cause for concern in my opinion,
> and may constitute a problem if they do not flatten out.
---
 
Murray found the problem so severe that he was moved to mark them all with
a dot so that they would be inserted into hives all facing one way to
ensure constant spacing.  I guess I could illustrate the problem thus :
 
|((((((((((| gives no problems.
|(((()())))| could in extreme cases cause a problem.
 
This example is very grossly exaggerated, obviously.
 
As you can see there *could*, conceivably -- in the case of severe warping
in two adjacent frames --  be so little space that brood rearing might be
impossible between some frames.  Moreover, a frame of sealed brood rotated
180 degrees on the vertical axis by the beekeeper and replaced (which
sometimes ocurs by accident or design) could conceoivably result in the
loss of some of the brood.
 
As for me, well, frankly, most of my *wax* brood frames are at least 1/16
to 1/8" off flat, anyhow.  It's hard to keep wax foundation perfectly flat
especially when embedding by hand with a spur embedder..  The 10,000 wood
and Permadent I made are probably the only totally flat frames in my
outfit AFAIK.  Even at that, a keen eye (which I have, having been a
finish carpenter) can see slight variations even in well made wooden
frames that will easily move the centre one way or the other 1/16" and
sometimes more.  The bottom bars are often off centre, the wire holes are
often drilled off centre, and the top groove can be out of place 1/16".
And come to think of it, the Permadent can be bowed if the frame grooves
are a bit shallow and the the plastic is pinched a bit -- and not a loose
fit.  Also, in practice, the Permadents sometime get bowed a bit in
extracting.
 
Wood frames, after a season or two,  space  the frames a touch wider than
when new, due to propolis builup.  Pierco has thin contact areas to ensure
tight fit -- if the frames are crowded with a hive tool -- so this
widening effect will not likely ocur, making the tolerances more
important?  Maybe Murray will comment.
 
We have many 9 frame metal-spaced BCs; there would never be a problem due
to slight warping.  The additional inter-frame spacing inherant in that
practice gives a bit of leeway.  The interferance problem would only ocur
in 10 frame spacing where the frames are deliberately pushed tight
together by the beekeeper.
 
Anyhow, since you asked, I feel I should reply, and I am also sending this
to the list as an update, since I have been boosting Pierco and should
give the 'dark' side too.
 
To reiterate and make things perfectly clear, I should say that I am not
pleased to find some warping, but do not think -- at this point -- that it
is causing me any problem whatsoever. I will order Pierco again, in black,
but with a specification for the maximum warp I will accept.
 
> Thanks for any input you can give me. I understand i can search the
> list for old threads on this matter but i had some trouble w/ my
> computer and lost all my old addresses and bookmarks so i don't have the
> instructions anymore on how to do that.  I thought it would be quicker
> contacting you and asking directly.
 
No problem.  I needed to write an update anyhow.
 
Check my sig line for how to search the easy way.  I do it all the time
myself, and it is truly amazing how much valuable information is there --
information I have forgotten exists.
 
Allen
 
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