BEE-L Archives

Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology

BEE-L@COMMUNITY.LSOFT.COM

Options: Use Monospaced Font
Show Text Part by Default
Show All Mail Headers

Message: [<< First] [< Prev] [Next >] [Last >>]
Topic: [<< First] [< Prev] [Next >] [Last >>]
Author: [<< First] [< Prev] [Next >] [Last >>]

Print Reply
Subject:
From:
charles Linder <[log in to unmask]>
Reply To:
Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology <[log in to unmask]>
Date:
Thu, 3 Jul 2014 09:05:33 -0500
Content-Type:
text/plain
Parts/Attachments:
text/plain (87 lines)
Is slash and burn so bad?  Generally it is small scale and after moving on
nature has the opportunity to reclaim the land.  Seems more sustainable than
huge family farms that often have vast monocultures and high inputs of fuel,
fertiliser and pesticides.


Peter/ Randy,  this is where we totally digress on sustainability.  Its an
opinion.  Period.  You guys claim that high inputs are unsustainable.  Same
argument mad for decades.  Heard the same stuff in the 70's  and its wrong.
It can be sustained as long as the markets hold out.  Inputs are based on
outputs.  As long as people need and want the products the inputs will
remain.  This is not a problem, nor does it mean its unsustainable.  No soil
is ruined in the process,  absolutely nothing happens that is not
reversible.  Probably the only real issue at hand can be erosion.  Much of
that hastened by the rivers navigation systems, but that only effects some
small areas.

Your comments on the water usage being unsustainable.  Strictly an opinion.
Levels are too low to provide everyone what they want, but that's hardly
unsustainable, that's market demand at work.  It will balance.  And when the
farming is going or changed, the water table will fill back up again like we
were never there.  Your out there,  so you much more in tune with the water
than most.  They report here that it's a fight between cities and AG... but
in the end that's what it is.  The farming is to feed the cities, so until
some sort of ugenics takes place we will continue to raise the bar.  That
same bar that has moved up worldwide for 400 years now at least.  There may
be a point when humans collapse because of unsustainability, but we are not
even close yet. Sure there are some places that have exceeded carrying
capacity,  and like fools we prop them up (Ethiopia for example)  but the US
farmers are not there. Not even close.
The levels of input are based on desired outputs.  Raise the price, demand
goes up, and so does the inputs to attain more output.  Price drops and
decisions are made to live with less output.  This year is a perfect
example,  corn is back in the high3-4 range again.


All of human life and cost are based on energy.  I had a very brilliant man
explain that to me. I can't do it justice, but everything you do, eat or buy
is based on energy cost.  EVERYTHING.  From the trip to grandmas,  to that
fishing trips economic cost.  Cars are based on how much energy it cost to
mine the materials, run the equipment, and the human energy inputs.  Food is
based on the cost to build equipment, fuel to plant and harvest (human or
diesel) the cost to transport said food.  Etc.  When the economic factors
fail,  then those values and needs drop accordingly.

In argueing the details,  you missed the big picture, on which for the most
part I think we agree.  And that is certain groups who are not involved and
for the most part totally clueless,  trying to effect something based on
emotion.

The second point is that we,  as beekeepers are in ownership of even less
than you argue about. You comment yourself, that you don't own the land that
bees forage on.  EXACTLY my point.  And the moment you become the crusader
trying to tell those landowners what the have to do,  your ability to use
that land is in jepordy.  You have built a relationship with what I will
call the stewards of that land, as have I.  My point was simple it is not
our place as trespassers, to try to regulate how they manage it.  We need to
work more togther,  and understand more and demand a lot less.  Its great if
we can point out problems to them, and work out an agreement.  But as a
group on whole it seems to me beeks are trying to get the government to make
a bunch of rules that favor us......

Our "huge expanses" of monocultures are tiny issues in the scheme of things.
Yup  lots of corn and beans  and beans and corn...  and huge wheat fields,
and orchards.  And also cities and huge tracts of alfalfa and clovers......
same as in nature.  Huge tracts of forest in Canada are pretty desolate to
bees..  and south Texas??  Hows that forage for bees??  I think when you
look at it you will find just as many bees here in the Midwest in those
"huge monocultures" as you will in the Arizona scrubs and Canadian pine
forest....   Its time we as a group quit thinking we know it all and
recognize the farming system for what it is, cool and fantastic system that
feeds the world,  so that people can sit on their buts in NYC and
prognosticate how terrible the people who feed them are doing........

If we had the attitudes of DU, or whitetails unlimited or Quail forever we
could do much more than what we are doing now....  I had been tainted by bee
groups as a bunch of snarky knowitalls with one goal in mind. Trash
farming.....Ready Beesource or ABJ can still cause me moments of that,  but
I do see the tide changing a bit...... Hope it continues,  but the "task
force" mentioned to start this conversation will be a huge step backwards
again.

             ***********************************************
The BEE-L mailing list is powered by L-Soft's renowned
LISTSERV(R) list management software.  For more information, go to:
http://www.lsoft.com/LISTSERV-powered.html

ATOM RSS1 RSS2