Hello Allen, Mike & All,
Thanks to Allen for the reply! I would not be looking at the issue if
Midwest beekeepers were only losing 12 of 112 over the winter. Only losing
12 is a number all commercial beekeepers can live with.
Also very true about the summer losses which I always see and at times back
in those days could be larger than winter loss.
Allen hypothesis about normal loss due mostly to queen loss seems
reasonable.

Bob,
>Did you prepare those hives that you are taking out of the study the same 
>as
the others that you are retaining?

Sadly yes.

"Watch the costs and the profits will take care of themselves" Andrew
Carnegie

When deciding which hives to winter my top priority is a good queen. The
second is winter bees.

A hive full of bees means little after the supers are removed.

A friend culls up to half his hives before shipment to Texas for winter.

I have an investment in the several I will remove tomorrow from the project.
Most likely I will simple add the bees to a strong hive , depopulate or
combine and see what happens. Those hives have slowed taking feed so I may 
check for nosema issues.

No need to attempt to winter those hives as experience has shown a waste of
time and money. I guess only dropping three from 70 I am looking at is not 
bad.



>If so, why do you think those hives didn't produce the numbers of winter
bees that the rest produced?

back in 2000 I think they would have but we had a fall honey flow and plenty
of pollen coming in so I did not feed fall pollen sub which may or may not
have had an effect. Those hives could be queenless and will know when I dig
into the hives tomorrow but may not be able to tell if queenless as some
hives are broodless now. Tomorrow is oxalic acid treatment for those study 
hives
(this year using a ivomec (cattle wormer) applicator similar to the Medvet
applicator shown on Allen's web page).


>Even though your are deleting the hives from the study, will you include
>their number in the final evaluation making note that they were deleted
>from the study early in the evaluation period?

Winter has not set in yet and these hives have not been treated any
different than my other hives *but* I have been looking closely at hive bee
numbers and making sure all have enough stored honey/syrup to survive the
winter. I still observe plenty of old bees in most hives. Lack of winter
bees will change the results.

I am trying to see what winter losses should be *if* the beekeeper takes the
time ( and it does take time) to prepare the hives for the most extreme
winter for our area ( which we saw last winter!)

For the test I need a group of disease free and mite low  level hives with
enough stores and winter bees.

Even a few hives with old bees , nosema ceranae issues or high mite loads
could change the results. I want to take some tracheal mite samples tomorrow
also.

Looks like only a few full time beekeepers will be left in Missouri next
spring as another large outfit is on the ropes due to a poor honey crop I
recently learned.

Per hive costs are rising and preparing a hive for winter and then picking
up as a deadout in spring hurts the bottom line.

In the Midwest we can go south and buy package bees for less than $50 a
package.  Most of these package bees have been fed fumigillin and the donor
hives treated for mites and disease. Placed on comb from depopulated hives
with plenty of pollen and honey these bees take hold fast. Queen acceptance
is high.

Winter feed alone usually runs $20-$30 per hive (based on around $3.50 a
gallon for succrose) plus labor and mite treatment costs. The winter hive
will have a second year queen in the spring while the package will have a
new queen.

Also one has to count the fall prep in the deadouts as part of the cost
invested in the winter survivors.

even in large lots queens cost commercial beekeepers around fifteen dollars
a piece.


I think you can see why commercial beekeepers in my area want to take
another look at wintering.

I think with my calculator I will find the cost of wintering (with deadout
costs added in) is similar to costs of simply using package bees.

bob

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