>with all due respects to Bob I only see and hear "claims" with no hard data
>to back it up when
speaking SPECIFICALLY about CORN treatments (not Imid in general) .

You asked for the data and I explained as best I could that PPM of the
neonicotinoids are found in the corn pollen and the MIDGUTS  of the dead
bees collecting corn pollen. The problem is that Bayer says those levels
will not kill the bees.(or even cause sub lethal effects)

We have the pollen & dead bee samples. PPM of imidacloprid in the midgut of
deadbees has changed a few minds. Finds are being made with PPM in the
midguts which even Bayer research SHOWS causes problems in bees.

Spending $40,000 of research money ( Penn State) to see if sub lethal doses
of imidacloprid are causing problems happened only because beeks like myself
pushed for the research to *support* our claims (lawsuit?) Thanks ABF!

As beeks we do not want those levels in our bees or their pollen ( nor do we
feel we should have to!) and because we have seen deadouts which we believe
are caused by the collecting  of corn pollen contaminated with PPM of
imidacloprid we are concerned and also believe Bayer or a grower needs to
pay for our losses.

Throw a rock through my window and you have to pay for the window!

run into my truck while parked and you have to pay.

If my livestock wonders onto the highway I have to pay for your auto damage

get my drift!

We believe that if we are pollinating 300 acres of seed alfalfa in north
Missouri and our bees gather corn pollen from the field next door and crash
and burn then the farmer or the maker owes us for some dead hives.

If bees are dying then the formula needs CHANGED!

Brian you have the right to believe what you like but lets put the shoe on
the other foot. What proof or data have you got which proves sub lethal
doses of imidacloprid does not harm honey bees other than Bayer data?

Research done other than Bayer has shown damage to bees from contaminated
pollen but we have been over this subject before and my position is in the
archives.

Remember the bees have to collect the pollen for a problem to happen.
Sitting hives next to corn in Missouri the last two years would not prove to
me the corn would not be a problem if collected and feed to brood.

Also my California friends do not see a problem mainly because the crops
which use the treated seed are rare in California.

Why shouldn't i feel any different than the pet or livestock owner which had
his pets or livestock die from melamine contaminated food from China.
Replacing dead hives costs money.

I don't really care what the grower does on the farm next to my bees ( smoke
pot or run a still included) until his practices start killing my bees!

bob

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