> > I was glad to see Jim Bach's post on the disposal of Apistan and Bavarol.
> > Move over Jim, there's more room on that soapbox!
>
> Soapbox? A pulpit might be more appropriate! It must be nice to live
> in a world of absolute black and white, no half measures or if and
> what if?

I respect all the parties here, and have learned quite a bit from all, but I'm
going to have to side strongly with David here for a number of good reasons:

I'm a bit concerned whenever I hear people suggesting that others should not
post openly about what they have done and are doing or are considering -- or
even wondering about -- because of legality or propriety, or conventionality.
(Don't think, though, that means that I support anyone's 'right' to post
inappropriate, repetitive, or disruptive material to this group).

Aaron once signed a post,"... enquiring minds need to know".  We do need to
know, if we are to make wise decisions, and open exchange of ideas and
information is essential to a free society.  'Free' means that we can each
decide whether to follow rules -- as we understand them -- or to disregard them
and suffer the consequences.  I realise that freedom for others who are
different from us is threatening to many, but the only way we can be free
ourselves is to allow our neighbours to be free.

Ignorance is one of the strongest forces on earth, and the 'net is one of the
tools we have to overcome it.  Restricting information and intimidation is one
of the traditional methods by which people seek to gain advantage over others.
If we want a free society, we must make honest information freely available,
without discrimination.  "Information just wants to be free".

It seems to me that the problems associated with development and application of
something like Apistan (R) are very complex, and developing a label and methods
that fit all situations involves so many considerations and assumptions that it
is actually an impossible task.  Nonetheless, the manufacturer and regulators
have come up with something, and we are all expected to live with it.  But it is
a compromise and any wise and honest person knows it is.

Following rules has consequences, breaking rules has consequences.  In this
case, following rules to the letter -- even if they could be perfectly
understood, which they cannot -- may not have been practical, possible or even
desirable.  After all, the purpose of putting in Apistan (R) is to keep the bees
alive.

The clincher, though is the label.  I actually took one out and read it again.
The Canadian label, at least says, "For best results, use one strip for each 5
frames or less of bees... For best chemical distribution, use when daytime
temperatures are at least 10 degrees C... Place strips in hive for 42 days.
Remove strips after treatment period.  Honey supers may be replaced after strips
are removed."

Now we have extension people routinely and automatically recommending 4 strips.
That means 20 frames of bees in the spring or fall.  Well, I don't even *have*
20 *frames of comb* in a double brood chamber hive.  I have 16 to 18, and at
this time of year, when things settle down, they are not all covered with bees.
At 15 degrees C, and without a flow, we count about 12 frames of bees right now
in the strong hives, and 9 or so in the others.  Hmmmm, one demerit for the
extension guys.

And, the label says, "For best results...".  This does not sound like an edict,
it sounds like a suggestion to me.  Then it says, "For best chemical
distribution...".  This again sounds like a suggestion, open to some compromise.

Further it says, "Place strips in hive for 42 days. Remove strips after
treatment period.  Honey supers may be replaced after strips are removed." This
appears to mean that the treatment period is 42 days, and some time
(unspecified) after that time, you are to remove them, especially if you wish to
put supers on.  Seeing as the chemical distribution is poor below 10 degrees C
and the bees are not even on the strips in winter (they are down below for most
of the winter and only come up later -- it seems reasonable not to make
destructive efforts to go and collect the spent strips.

It is my understanding that properly employed strips are pretty well used up
after the 42 days.  I think someone here said that only 10% of the chemical
remained after that time.  I have no proof, but seeing as my label claims 10.25%
fluvalinate-tau  -- it does not specify by weight or by volume, so the
assumption is by weight -- one should be able to weigh them and confirm this,
assuming manufacture is reasonably accurate.

Of course, everyone is concerned about the development of Apistan (R) tolerant
varroa, but it is not the fault of one beekeeper if this happens, it is the
fault of the manufacturers and regulators.  Development of tolerance, and the
timeframe in which it will occur, is a predictable *certainty* for many reasons,
however the main reason that we will lose this method of mite control in a short
period, is simply that it is only one method, relies on a rather fragile
mechanism, and a second or third methods are not rotated with it.  I submit that
tolerance will arrive here *at the same time, regardless of whether David, and
other Davids, leave their strips in over winter*.

Further... If anyone thinks for a moment that the Apistan (R) rules -- even if
they were carved in stone and written in perfectly clear legal language, which
they are not -- could be, or are, followed flawlessly to the letter in actual
practice, I can assure that person that it is simply not possible.  I have 3,000
hives and I think I am a fairly good operator.  I have notes and charts and
instructions for my staff that impress most who see them.  Nonetheless, we
missed some hives here and there, both in inserting strips, and removing them.
We even missed a whole yard somehow.

Additionally, the strips are sometimes poorly made, and tear when being removed
and sometimes fall down in between frames and are lost.  In hive inspections, I
think any honest person who opens thousands of hives, will admit to finding lost
or forgotten strips more than occasionally.  It might take a generation for a
strip to accidentally get lost once in a hive in a 10 hive operation, but it is
happening on a significant and consistent basis all over the world.  No amount
of regulation or chiding will stop it.  It is just a feature of the method and
is inevitable.  This feature may have more effect on eventual tolerance than
even deliberate abuse -- if this term can be defined --  by individuals.

>         In my world of greys and off whites there has to be areas to
> manoeuvre in. In my case I made certain to state that I knew it to be
> wrong to leave strips in all winter with no intention of repeating it
> this year, but in your world of B&W it would state 'leave them out'.
> Save years of hard work and selection and my bees of course, or leave
> the strips out and watch them die!

I'm not so sure you were wrong.

allen