Hello Scot & All,
>If you take bees and allow them to build their own combs, they tend to
build small cell or something approximating it.
Our experience has been they build the approx. size comb from which they
swarmed from as we catch many of the swarms from out own bees and have
checked. At times larger cell.
>Now to answer your question strictly related to bees and small >cell; small
cell does prove to be a large part of the varroa management factor in our
operations. By point:
1) When bees are raised on small cell brood combs, their brood cycle is
reduced by 1 or 2 days compared to bees on 5.4mm foundation. This reduces
the length of the number of brood cycles a female mite can complete, and
therefore reducing the growth rate of varroa populations.
Certainly a possible hypothesis but not one generally accepted by
reaserchers.
2) Varroa like any other parasite relies on good sources of nutrition. Large
bees produce more hormones and nutrient's than small bees. The varroa mite
has exhaustively been documented to prefer drones, and select as a 2nd
choice large worker cells, leaving smaller cells as a last alternative.
Although I agree in general. We have NEVER been able to determine why varroa
prefers drone brood. Cells could or could not be part of the reason.
Different JGH is also a hypothesis.
3) bees on small cell show evidence of certain hygenic activities that their
cousins (queen sister's brood) placed on large cell do not.
First I have ever heard of the above small cell hypothesis. I am from the
"show me state". I will have to be shown the above before I buy in but will
keep an open mind.
The above implys that if I take my strain of Italian bees and downsize onto
small cell certain hygienic activites will start to happen. Been there done
that and did not happen.
.> The bees recongize a worker cell that is infested with varroa and they
chew the cell out, pincing the varroa. The dead bee is later removed during
house cleaning periods.
This behavior has been observed in bees on all cell sizes.
> It is never-the-less something you do not see occuring with any regularity
occuring within large cell hives.
I believe the genetics has more to do with the above than cell size.
> How can you say that bees can't tolerate varroa, varroa isn't some new
breed spontaneously becoming an epidemic, its a breed of pest that has been
around for quite a long time, longer than fathomable by many folks. The bees
we have here in the
USA have at some point or points in their ancestry had to deal with varroa
and its ancestry since the genesis of their respective species.
The honey bee has been studied for hundreds of years. Regardless of Dee's
hypothsis (explained by her on BEE-L years ago) that varroa has always been
around in U.S. beekeeping and we just discovered varroa.
We know beyond a shadow of a doubt through the beekeeping research done in
the U.S. varroa was an introduced pest. ( 1987).
With all due respect to Dee & others I would drop the *been around forever
in U.S.* hypothesis.
We also know when varroa jumped hosts from A.cerana to A.melifera and the
location .
Bob
Its part of
who the honey bee is, its part of their environment that shaped and shapes
them whether past and present. Its one of the stresses that helped the honey
bee become who it is today, and will continue to shape its evolution during
its tenure on our planet. Further is the varroa is successully eradicated
(not remotely likely), another stress factor will fill the void and the
cycle
will begin anew.
> (So, what, if anything, happens if one
> shakes the whole small-cell colony onto fully-drawn "normal-sized" comb?
The bees may reject it and abscond or squander. They may lay in it, and in
watching through several complete brood cycles, one sees that the bees'
hygenic habits change for the worse. They become lazy, inverse to them
becoming more vigorous as they are returned to smaller sizes.
> And then what happens if one swaps
> out the queen? And so on, each move aimed at narrowing down the actual
> mechanism
> at work here.)
Of course changing the queen will change the character of the hive, I am not
even sure why you would bring this up. What will happen? Who can say,
changing the queen in any hive is the same as changing the queen in any
other
hive. Its a weighted crap shoot.
>
> Are small-cell beekeepers simply unwitting "SMR breeding program
> Do-It-Yourselfers"?
> If not, how would anyone know for sure?
Yes they most certainly are. They question you probably SHOULD have asked is
whether these new SMR characteristics will continue to be expressed if one
returns the bees to large cell hives. That answer is most likely --
sometimes.
> > You will continue to see varroa in your hives, the difference is your
> > hives will not crash because of it. The varroa population remain
> > maintained instead of overwhelming your bees.
>
> So your mite counts rise to a certain level each year, and then hover
> there?
I didn't say they rise and hover, I said they remain managed.
> That's interesting and new information, as it would mean that SOME
> varroa are reproducing, but not many of them.
Of course, if they didn't do so, they would not exist at all now would they?
Large cell beekeeping isn't a major part of the bees' ancestry, its a recent
event which has effected their recent short term adaptation, but isn't part
of their ancient evolution. The mite didn't just spontaneously occur, its
simply found a new weakness to exploit because of our dickering with the
natural way of the bees. Just as us providing chemical and other treatments
has given nature another tool to exploit weakness in the varroa.
> The lack of any mite count
> records over time for even a single small-cell colony is a real impediment
> to the small-cell advocates gaining acceptance for their approach.
If mite counts are not the issue but the bees' ability to manage its
coexistence with varroa, why would mite numbers be important? Not knowing
the
number is not an impediment at all to small cell advocates. We are already
practicing sound successful methods of operation. Why do you reject
something
that works? Just because you don't have the numbers? That's pretty silly
wouldn't you agree?
If a boat floats, it floats. If it sinks it sinks.
> > There is only one way to know for sure, its not through reading, its not
> > through listening to others advocate it, and it is certainly not through
> > the arguments about it, the only way is to find out for yourself
>
> OK, here's I would "find out for myself":
>
> a) Get some existing small-cell colonies that have been
> properly regressed by someone who knows how to do this,
> as my attempts at this failed.
>
> b) Drop them off at a legitimate research facility for
> them to record mite counts and monitor the colony
> while doing normal beekeeper maintenance, but no
> mite treatments.
Read the response to C
> c) Sit back and wait for the results, which will be initially
> authoritative on the sole point of "do these colonies
> really survive varroa?".
Actually, if the bees survive, then THIS would answer whether the bees
survive. Numbers would be moot, because the bees are still there or they are
not. What would be a more appropriate measure of the success of varroa (and
pest/disease) manageability is the measure of strength of the hive and its
production and whether its still there tomorrow.
> d) Run a second study after the first, where we swap combs
> in and out, swap queens in and out, and so on in an attempt
> to narrow down root causes, and, one hopes, show that we
> can, in the same colony, increase mite counts, and then
> lower them again by merely moving the colony between combs
> left over from various stages of regression. Or something.
Again, the result is what's important. Evolution has already performed these
tests, just because you don't comprehend the current results (which is
simply
a matter of survival and competion and has nothing to do with numbers), does
not mean that the results are not conclusive. Numbers on paper do not
measure
whether a hive will survive and compete or not, the only thing that can do
that is the continued success or failure of the bees. We should stop
monitoring the varroa and perhaps start monitoring the bees? How's that
catch
you?
> Monitoring a colony or three for mite drop and "survival" with the usual
> beekeeper
> maintenance, but without use of miticides would be an easy and very
> low-cost project
> to run. What studies have been done to date have stumbled on the
> "regression" step,
> resulting in some hard feelings on the part of the small-cell enthusiasts
> toward the researchers.
Why would it cause hard feelings? Those of us that survive will continue
while
those who do not, quite simply do not. I am not here to play games, I am
here
to live.
>
> U. Georgia is not too far from Sarasota, and I am quite sure that they
will
> not mind a small project that arrives at their door fully funded and fully
> equipped.
> It would help to start with "completely regressed" colonies. It would
also
> help to have some "transition" combs from some midpoint during the
> regression process for step (d).
>
> > and to keep a few small cell hives and keep them for more than just a
> > year, it takes a while to see the continued benefits.
>
> How does the colony survive during the period when one "can't see the
> benefits"?
So are you saying because you don't understand the successes of bees that
the
percieved benfits aren't forthcoming? Sounds like more silliness to me.
>
> jim (Yes, I am an agent of Satan, but
> my duties are purely ceremonial)
Ceremony and perception sometimes bleed into one another. Are you going to
continually and ceremoniously be the devil's advocate while people genuinely
perceive you to speak truth? The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
--
Scot Mc Pherson
[log in to unmask]
http://linuxfromscratch.org/~scot
http://beewiki.linuxfromscratch.org
AIM: ScotLFS ICQ: 342949 MSN:[log in to unmask]
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