> Hello Stan Sandler & All,
> Stan you and your troubles with the maker of imidacloprid were in my
> rejected post. You responded to Jim in this discussion. Could you give the
> list an update on your battle to get to see the results of the testing.
>
> Did the company rep provide the results like you asked of him on BEE-L. 
> Did
> he respond at all?

I have continued to correspond with David Fischer of Bayer Crop Science off
the list.  On Aug. 19 he said he had been in touch with Dr. Kemp about which
samples should be analyzed, and what budget restraints there were.  He said 
Dr.
Kemp indicated it might be a month or two.   He also said that the soil 
persistence
study was in the domain of his "E-Fate colleagues" and they were on 
vacation.

On Oct. 10 I asked for an update, and he immediately replied, and said that 
Dr.
Kemp has not responded yet.  (Dr. Kemp has NOT contacted me, which I find
odd, because we already sat down several years ago and prioritized which 
samples
needed testing).  He said he appreciated my patience.  He did not mention 
the soil
persistence studies.  I will ask again.

David Fischer has never been anything but courteous with me, and I have 
always
tried to put my objections to imidacloprid on a factual basis.   I am quite 
surprised
at Aaron's post indicating that he thought David would not post to this list 
anymore.
I think that if he has something to add he will, and I think if we ask him a 
direct
question he will respond.

To go back to facts, thankyou Bob for noting that Temik and imidacloprid are
not aerially applied to oranges.  I personally did not have a good example 
for
Jim's question.  In my own hives that collapsed the chemical was soil 
injected,
and therefore not aerially applied, but I had the impression that Jim was 
looking
for an outright kill the way I have seen other insecticides kill my
hives (he specified not due to sub-lethal effects).  I never to my knowledge 
saw that.
But I also never kept hives near potato fields where there was foliar 
spraying.
My hives did dwindle and die due to sub lethal effects.  Bayer does 
advertise
that this is the method that imidacloprid kills termites.   From the label 
of
Premise 75:  "Premise causes a range of effects in termites, they stop 
feeding
and are unable to maintain their colony.  A second effect, exclusive to 
Premise,
is called PREMISE PLUS NATURE (TM).  This phenomenon makes
termites susceptible to infection by naturally occurring organisms.  Either
way the termites die and your home is protected".

I do want to point out that another of Jim's arguments for the superiority 
of
systemics over spot treatments is that the systemic is preapplied to the 
seed
(reducing operator error).  However Jim, please be aware that in the case of
potatoes here (and most likely in Long Island) farmers apply the material to
the seed set themselves.   No one sells "treated seed potatoes" to my 
knowledge.
It is applied in the set cutter on the planter.   However, that is a great
improvement over foliar spray and soil injection (which was the case when
I saw the effects in my hives that I have written about).

Also, I would like offer my opinion that the systemic applied to maple trees
will not be quickly dissipated.  My bees never get honey from maples, but 
the
pollen is indispensable.  It first good pollen source here.   I offer this 
reference:

Sclar D.C. and Cranshaw W.S  ;  Journal of Environmental Horticulture;14 
(1):

"Injections of imidacloprid in the soil around the feet of elms are 
particularly
effective against principal pests (beetles and elm aphids).  The persistence 
is
particularly long, such that the pests are under control even in the 
following
season wherever treatment has taken place".

Regards
Stan

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