Hello Tom & All,
I  had thought you would have had an answer by now Tom.

I guess the old dinosaur of beekeeping ( closing in on fifty years among the
bees and still a young man)  will have to answer.

I was in Florida when the project started and used many of both Starline &
Midnight queens. I have pressed Dr. Larry Conner on several occasions for
the *exact*lines used to create the Midnight and Starline.

Each time I took notes. I think I have got close to the formula now.

The method of a four way closed system I have down its the original
combination of races which are missing. Trial & error would provide a close
second but with the original Midnight program information to compare with
the project would be easier. I am not considering a project to recreate
those lines at this time but the thought has crossed my mind.

I think if you asked Dr. Conner ( please ask Larry ) he would say Bob
Harrison has always tried to find out about the secrets behind the project.

Dr. Conner signed a non-disclosure agreement concerning the Midnight but I
believe the agreement has run out yet he still keeps the secrets. I am under
a signed non-disclosure agreement with Purvis Brother Apiaries I a retired
USDA_ARS researcher (7 years of which 3 are passed I believe) but really was
never  told very much about which lines they used. I do know several.

The Midnight bee is based on hybrid vigor. Hybrid vigor is amazing to
see.Most researchers and bee breeding books rate hybrid vigor at a 30%
increase in production. A huge increase in productivity. The only breeding
program I am aware of today which uses hybrid vigor is the Purvis Brothers
breeding program.

After Dadant dropped the Midnight & Starline program a few breeders kept
offering queens but after awhile without the Instrumental insemination
queens from Dadant the program died off. Dann  Purvis could easily run a
midnight program as the original program was a four way closed system and
the Purvis Gold line is based on a six way closed system ( a step up).


>Anyone know who sells Midnight's these days?  If anyone.

I don't and would be leery of a breeder saying he can provide the same bee
as the "Midnight" ( brand name for the Dadant  hybrid vigor bee).

My own comments on the Midnight are :

A very prolific bee (very similar to Italian) but able to shut down in
dearth ( similar to Carniolan). A gentle bee ( similar to Caucasian which
was used in creating the Midnight) but a very nasty bee when superceded (
not always but enough to get your attention.)

I also thought both the Midnight and Starline were worth the higher price
( easily) and was always surprised the price was not double production
queens instead of only a few dollars higher. I got the best Midnight's from
Howard Weaver in Texas. I believe the queens when placed on a quarter all
legs would touch the edge. The legs also had a red tint. She was so large
she was easy to spot on the comb. The defined *circle* was easy to spot as
she moved across comb. The Midnight's drew white comb and produced beautiful
comb honey. I found the queens had strong queen pheromones and the hive
would quickly roar (increase noise) when she was removed from the hive for
several minutes.

In later years I found the Midnight's did not  perform as they did when
Dr.Conner ran the program so I started using other breeders queens. The
Midnight program queens in the late years lacked the hybrid vigor of the
earlier years and I heard from my sources that the program was having
problems keeping the lines used in the 4 way breeding program pure.

I used the lines until Howard Weaver stopped providing queens. Many on the
list have heard of Roy & Binford Weaver but not Howard.

Of the three I liked the queens and service of Howard best although I was
always satisfied with the other Weavers queens I tried.

I have always tried different queen producers queens. I still do!

Howard and I spent hours on the phone and although I was only starting out I
appreciated beekeepers of Howard's position taking the time to share
knowledge.

Perhaps other beekeepers which used and remember the Midnight's & Starlines
will comment? BEE_L was started I believe after the program ended so would
be a valuable addition to the archives.

Sincerely,
Bob Harrison





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