> It does not take much thought or reading to to conclude that neonics do
> kill bees.
>
> In some specific situations, they kill a lot of bees, but in the larger
> scheme of things, there does not seem to be any evidence that this happens
> often or on a large scale where they are properly applied and beekeepers
> are careful.
>

Agree, including the comments on commercial beekeepers and how small losses
can have a major economic effect.

Way back when on this list, the issue with tartaric acid in sugar candy was
discussed. It had been a mainstay of the formula for years until research
showed it had a detrimental effect on overwintering bees. The losses were
minimal (5-15%), but with the normal losses during winter, had an impact.
There were some who said the study was bogus since they never saw any
effect of tartaric acid. Sort of where we are now with the neonics.

Also, way back when, I believe it was Medhat who did a study on bumblebees
in greenhouses and Imids effect on them, It mirrored what the current
studies showed, disorientation and other physical problems, so the data has
been around for a long time. In fact, I thought his studies looked like the
reason for the bee deaths in France. That certainly has gotten muddied
since then.

So what we may have is a problem with bees but at a low level, especially
compared to all the other problems bees face. It could be easily masked,
since how do you see a 5 or even 15% decrease in summer of colony
population? With all the other variables, it is close to impossible.

So, if normal nectar/pollen/other levels of the nics cause 5-15% bee
foraging/death then does that constitute an economic threshold for banning
the pesticide compared to the benefits the farmer enjoys with a "safe"
effective pesticide that is better than what it replaced? What is the real
level of bee foraging/death in the field, not in a lab where much higher
levels of neonics are fed? (It would have been interesting to see what
happened to bees if fed 10 times the dose of pre-neonics systemic
pesticides as they were in the neonic studies. My guess is they would be
dead, not disoriented.)

And what happens to pollination fees, since now there may be additional
risk on the part of the beekeeper?

And, if you get the neonics banned, what replaces them?

Going to be interesting.

Bill Truesdell
Bath, Maine

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