Scott Moser wrote:

>    I was determined to keep out of this discussion,

Well, I was trying that too...... But a few thoughts from my point of view;
I'm presently using Buckfast, have tried Carnica for several years and also been fiddling
with some Ligustica. What is best at one location/climate might not be good at another.
Bear this in mind when we talk bee races (and a lot of other things) on this list. There
is also differences between what we have in Europe and what has been taken to America and
there "adjusted" to different conditions and beekeeping methods. The New World Carniolans
are a good example of this.

I'm afraid we are not talking about the same bees, and that's the way it should be. Bees
will adjust to local conditions when taken to another place. They will do it naturally,
or with the "help" from breeders.

But if we stick to what we can talk about, genetics and how we can use it to our
advantage. I have limited knowledge about it, so I'll stay with what I use in my everyday
bee work.

The Midnight and Starline; To produce queens with a maximum of heterosis (hybrid vigour)
you have to find two races/lines of bees that when crossed produce bees of exceptional
quality. How many of you have got a hive that's better than everything else, that
produces 50% more honey? That happens now and then when the genetic mixture in the bees
fits better together. Now if you want to reproduce those bees, you will have to find the
same queen and the same drones and cross them again. If you breed from that superior
queen you will not get what you want (like if you would try to use the seeds from an F1
plant). So if we want to have those bees we will have to keep different lines with the
exact genetics. This means inbreeding, and loosing vigour every generation in the mother
colony. They will get so bad in the end that brood from other colonies will have to be
added to just keep them alive. BUT, they will still produce excellent offspring when
crossed with the "right" drones. These queens produced are end products, and no good for
further breeding. And a scheme like this is very difficult to keep going for a longer
time with bees. But when done right, it will produce better bees than we can get any
other way.


Allen Dick wrote:

> Having said that, I guess any time we buy queens from different suppliers,
> we are getting some degree of hybridization if they go on to reproduce.

That's the way most of us keep the stock vigorous and healthy. By getting genetics from
different sources we can get some hybrid vigour without the disadvantages of working with
pure hybrids.

> What I can't figure is all the talk of mean offspring from Buckfasts.
> AFAIK, Buckfasts are not highly inbred or hybridized...  What gives?

Bad breeders...... well, it's not quite that simple. There is a state of conflict here
between producing "pure" bees, and getting the most vigorous offspring that gives a
better result. When all breeding involves a sudden amount of inbreeding to keep the
desired traits, there is the balance between "pure" queens and prolific queens. And
breeders will make different choices here. The answer might be that there is not enough
material imported to the US from England to ensure different lines of Buckfast bees to
cross.

Buckfasts are a mixture of many races, but no real hybrids. They are stable like other
races and produce good offspring if used for queen mothers. When a new race is mixed into
the Buckfast bees, it will not be used for production until the traits are stable and all
bees will have the same behaviour. This will take a number of generations before it is
released as "pure Buckfast".

There are numbers of different Buckfast lines available and crossed with each other to
ensure that inbreeding doesn't happen here in Europe. My experience from Buckfast is that
they winter as good as Carnica, better than Ligustica. They don't swarm like Carnica and
can be very gentle. Some of the lines are as fast at spring build up as Carnica. But you
have a limited number of suppliers in America, and will probably not get the diversity we
have. So once again, we are not talking about the same bees....

Just some thoughts........

--
Regards

P-O Gustafsson, Sweden
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