>As all  beekeeping is local, I find that earlier statement about commercial 
>apple spraying to be
completely incorrect for the Wisconsin/Mn region.

Or either you are not as knowledgeable about your fellow apple growers as 
you think?

 Most large growers will not even discuss their methods around organic or 
growers on the IPM bandwagon. Most do not becuase the organic and IPM are 
going to condem their methods. The most successful growers are not the 
organic and IPM growers but I wish was true.  Organic and IPM methods 
involve risk. The large grower is not interested in taking risks. Small 
growers, organic and IPM growers  and state extension people are interested 
in taking risks.

it is what it is.

Surviving in a tough apple business is the main concern for the large 
grower. In Washington State most of the small orchards like Brian speaks of 
have closed their doors. I watched a recent documentary on the subject 
awhile back.

>Most large orchards up here use IPM techniques and very few to none use the 
>neonictinoids.

Apples( from my over 30 years of growing) are a tough crop to produce pest 
free. The safest way to obtain the best fruit is with a spray plan set up at 
intervals so protection from pests is assured. A small orchard like Brian 
speaks of (or mine) can practice IPM. The large guys never take a chance 
from what I have observed. Apples need to be close to perfect to sell in 
todays market.

For years I attended the Missouri large fruit growers meetings and 13-14 
(and up) insecticide sprays is not unusual. Concoctions of diferent prays 
used together are not uncommon. Penn cap M is the insecticide of choice and 
as Brian says only a few use the new neonicotinoids.


>I am qualified to make these claims as I manage 1800 apple trees and 
>participate in University and
Industry conferences and also do apple pollination for many orchards.

Usually when two qualified people meeting they agree on the basics.

I see no need for assail use on apples in bloom.

>We keep hearing the same nonsense about corn

You are entitiled to your opinion and your opinion is based on what? The 
research to register the neonicotinoids has been proven not accurate. You 
offer no proof (other than your reading of the chemical paperwork) to 
support your claims that the neonicotinoids do not harm bees. For every 
person which believes as you do hundreds of others are in the streets 
complaining.

How can you be so sure you are right and the rest of us are wrong?



.>If anything
the Corn Belt had very few reports of CCD.

Totally not true for my area. The three largest operations are seeing bees 
crashing in areas of corn tasseling now.

>But the Bayer myth lives on and I find it to be the most comforting to 
>those who are heavy into self
contamination of their own hive's brood nests or at least support the idea-r 
that beekeepers need
something beyond the soft treatments in order to stay in business.

I personally do not believe you have a clue what commercial beeks are doing 
or using. Many beeks from your own state have posted the same opinion. The 
post on BEE-L from a Minnesota commercial beek said only two beeks were 
caught using shop rags (and it was never said what was being used). Like the 
beek said at the time. Not even a percent of the states beeks!


>IMO apples are hardly a concern for beekeepers since bees only visit them 
>during bloom and most
growers are not concerned about insects at bloom - only scab.

I have real problems with what you say and have a hard time letting slip by 
unanswered. . Assail has been serious problems for beekeepers doing apple 
pollination. Your veiws (which may reflect your personal experience) may not 
include bee kills related to assail but assail was discussed at the 
commercial beekeepers meeting at the national convention and all greed 
posted problems. Bee kills were reported when growers sprayed during bloom 
while hives were in apples.

I have dealt with apple growers for decades and they all start timed spray 
programs starting with the first insecticide spray  as soon as the hives are 
pulled.  Many varieties grow on the tree from April to Sept./Oct. in 
Missouri. 7-8 months  2 sprays a month is 14-16 sprays and in certain years 
sprays for insects are needed more often.  The large orchards I deal with 
NEVER take a risk on a other than perfect crop.

The funny thing is most growers  plant disease resistant varieties but spray 
hell out of the trees anyway.  Is this the IPM Brian speaks of? Of course 
many beeks do the same for current bee problems. If a bee can get the 
problem the beeks treat for the problem. Not my method but a common method 
of keeping bees.

Call a bee supply house and most are happy to sell you all the meds needed 
to cover all possible problems. Very few say to test and treat if necessary!

Quite a bit of likeness between many beekeepers and and growers.

IPM to many means simply skipping a spray to save money but has a element of 
risk.  I do all the time with my apples which is why most my apples become 
applesauce!

As in poker never risk what you can not afford to lose!

bob 

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