Hello,
Thank you all sincerely for responding to my mating nuc questions. I'm happy
to say that so far, after your input, my mating rate has gone up from ~33%
to around 90%!
The boxes I use have entrances facing different ways. I added canvas to
separate the compartments and painted geometric shapes around the
entrances varying the pattern and color.
Summary:
From: Allen Dick <[log in to unmask]>
> I'm mating queens. I use single nuc boxes and boxes divided in two.
The matings I get in the single boxes are about 80%, but the divided
boxes are about 33%.
Odd. We use standards divided into three with 90% or so success. The
entrances are on opposite sides and the outsides are painted different
colours as if three three frame nucs were taped together, each painted a
different colour. We also have standards (all white) with 5 or is it six
separate compartments with holes on different sides. They are very
successful.
> I'm using masonite to divide the boxes, and there is a large "buffer
area" between the two masonite dividers (a medium divided into three
compartments with the nucs on the outside compartments.) There are small
gaps between the masonite and the hive rabbet. Very small. Also, I use
flat cypress tops that often do not stay flat (they warp a little).
Shouldn't matter. Some use a sheet of black plastic as an 'inner cover'
It tends to settle and seal well on top.
I wonder if you have enough bees in the nucs? (open) Brood to hold the
bees?
How are they separated in the yard? Random organisation with some junk
for orientation helps.
> Is the virgin or queen crossing over into the other nuc via the
uneven > top or through the gaps from the masonite?
(line deleted...sorry ...was the virgin crossing over via the underside of
the top.)
I doubt
> Also, the entrance holes I have are very small, 5/8" or about 1 cm.
> These are almost tunnel like. Should they be bigger, and deeper or does
> this not matter.
Shouldn't matter.
Is the material repellant somehow? Are your success comparisons at the
same time and place? Total failures of good mating systems sometimes
occur.
> I want to use the divided nucs since if they work, I'll be getting twice
as many queens mated in the same space.
We use them all the time.
From: ibra <[log in to unmask]> Andrew Matheson,
It's been a while since I did much queen rearing, but I thought I'd
comment from what I do know.
>There are small > gaps between the masonite and the hive rabbet. Very
small. Also, I use flat > cypress tops that often do not stay flat (they
warp a little). > Is the virgin or queen crossing over into the other
nuc via the uneven > top or through the gaps from the masonite?
Quite likely, though I think it doesn't matter even if the virgins aren't
getting through. If there is worker-worker contact, then you know what's
happening to queen pheromones. Your queenless nucs with emerging cells
aren't actually queenless, at least to the workers. Keeping the
separations absolutely bee-tight is important.
> Also, the entrance holes I have are very small, 5/8" or about 1 cm.
> These are almost tunnel like. Should they be bigger, and deeper or does
> this not matter.
My own feeling is that this doesn't matter.
From: [log in to unmask] (Andy Nachbaur)
You will alway's have trouble with 2 virgins in one box, but you can limit
it somewhat by the addition of a inner cover made of dill, canvas, sail
cloth, or denim. Burlap also works but is harder to cut, but really is
nice smoker fuel after a year or two. I like burlap, but have used other
materials in my two way nuc's made from 3/4 depth supers with a plywood
divider. These can be used as supers or put together to make big hives
that can be wintered.
The canvas or burlap sack keep's the bee's or queen's apart, makes it
possible to work one side at a time, by laying the cloth over. I stapled
mine down the middle to the divider board. It also can hang over the sides
a little, seems to help the mated queen's find their way back to the right
hole and may limit robbing.
The way my neighbor is running the 2 way's now is to catch a round or
two of queens, then he just make a single queen catch being sure all have
one queen per two way and puts on a full depth super for early divides
next spring when he makes them up again.
For getting lot's of queens nothing beats baby nuc's for cost per queen
vis labor and materials needed, but not everyone want's a bunch of little
boxes stored up most of the year.
I used a bore or fight hole for my 2 way's and did not have a lower
entrance at all. I also paint all my equipment different colors on all
sides so they would also help, and I had wooden closer's for the flight
hole that were panted a dark color, black, blue, red and so on which also
seemed to help, but even then don't remember getting many 100% days. 80%
is good, 95 better, but all is dependent on the winds and weather and some
luck.<G>
ttul Andy-
From: "Marla Spivak" <[log in to unmask]>
Adam, are the entrances facing in opposite directions in your divided
boxes? It should help. It will also help the queens orient back to the
boxes if you put different color designs around the entrance holes (e.g.,
blue circle, yellow 'x', orange stripes, green triangle, etc.) The queens
can find the location of a single nuc, but it sounds like they are flying
into the wrong divided box and probably getting killed. - Marla
From: "John Gates 604 260-3015 (fax 549-5488)" <[log in to unmask]>
A number of years ago when running a bee breeding project here in British
Columbia Canada we experimented with a number of mating nuc designs. Over
the long term single nucs yielded more mated queens than doubles, triples
less still and quads the worst. If you wish to rear a small number of
queens and maximize your return per nuc, stick with singles. Large
operators must factor in the efficiencies of using less boxes in closer
quarters and often opt for a smaller queen return for less cost.
Nuc orientation is very important in increasing mating success. Give your
bees lots of orientation cues by facing entrances in different directions,
using a variety of colours and patterns at the entrances, setting the nucs
near natural features such as trees, boulders, bushes etc and possibly
more important, keep them sheltered from the wind. An open windy location
will cause a lot of drift, resulting in poor acceptance of returning
queens. Sometimes you will get about comparable results from the different
nucs, but over the long term, in our experience singles will be better.
In multi-compartment nucs bees must not be able to cross from one
compartment to another or your success will be drastically reduced. To
avoid problems with warped wood, staple plastic or canvass to the top of
the divider between compartments. The material should be cut large enough
to cover the tops of both compartments, acting as an inner cover, securely
sealing one nuc from the other.
In the early 80's we were mating queens in high altitude isolated yards in
the mountains while testing the Page/Laidlaw closed population mating
system. The first season we ran out of time to construct a large
electically fenced yard for bear protection so had to use the small
established yard we had for 20 hives. We crammed 25 full-size hives and
100 nucs into that yard sitting the nucs on top of colonies and on the
ground in all the available space. By using techniques to minimize drift
we obtained 100 % success for one round. It just happened to be the round
that Dr. laidlaw came to see. He was astonished at the success rate as
were we. We didn't press our luck though and subsequently built larger
yards.
You didn't mention where your entrances were. To increase success with
multi-compartment nucs put the entrances on different sides of the boxes.
Mini nucs often have entrances of 3/8" to 1/2" in diameter for protection
from robbing. If robbing is a factor during your mating period you will
have to do something. You may need to build robber screens especially for
larger openings. If you need more ventilation when mating queens during
hot weather you can drill 1" or larger holes in the rear of each
compartment and cover them with screen. I overwinter my nucs on top of
large colonies and use the ventilation holes (which are drilled near the
top of the boxes) for winter entrances.
Good luck,
John Gates
From: "BLANE WHITE" <[log in to unmask]>
Adam, You maight want to try a cloth "inner" cover under the cover as this
should prevent bees from crossing over from one nuc to the other. You may
need seperate inner covers for each nuc stapled to the inner side of the
buffer space. good luck I know that others use divided hive bodies for
nucs and don't have a problem...but they don't admit a low success rate.
Blane
From: "Kerry Clark 784-2225 fax (604) 784 2299" <[log in to unmask]>
Hi Adam
I've seen nucs such as the one you describe, work fine for mating
queens. Even using all 3 chambers has worked, although the consequences
of a queen returning from a flight to a neighbouring nuc are much worse
than a bit of interchange of workers.
Do you have the entrances on different sides of the nuc? That would be
important. Different landmarks or colors at the entrances would also
help.
Inside, if there is interchange of bees between the nucs, or perhaps
even if the air is shared between nucs, there could be increased
rejection of any queens after the first one starts to lay. One neat
trick to seal the nucs is to staple a flexible sheet (plastic or cloth)
that covers both nucs, along the divider, so the separation is more
complete. During inspection, only one unit is open at a time, so bee
exchange is minimized. good luck
--
______________________________________
Adam Finkelstein
[log in to unmask]
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