>I have no idea why we are using a poison gas developed in 1941 as a poster
child for neonicotinoids.

Simply to point out that the PPM were in the systemics from the start.
Chemical companies have long argued the levels should be of no concern.
Bayer argued only in the PPB at the start. We now know PPM in many cases.

>Plus, systemics have been used both commercially
and as home pesticides since then. Ortho sold plenty back in the 1970s, so
nothing is new.

Not the neonicotinoids! And NEVER systemic pesticides at the level of the
last few years!

>Plus, I really do not know anyone who says they are harmless to bees or
people. Their warning labels refute that.

Labels are of use for people which read and obey labels.  On pumpkins &
melons even following the label kills bees.

>Question is, how do you limit it so both sides
benefit?

Only one way in my opinion.

>It seems that is just what Bayer is trying to do.

Bayer is trying to maintain its products are not causing problems anyway
they can. Billions in revenues are at stake! The EPA is now doing what they
should have been doing from the start.
Taking a hard look at registration of the neonicotinoids.

>Or do we drop back to organophosphates?

The largest apple grower in Missouri is very happy with organophosphates and
considers the neonicotinoids problems. He says none of the growers believe
the neonicotinoids will do the job the organophospahtes do. He has been
using organophosphates since 1926. Believes pulling the organophosphates 
will be the last straw for the U.S. apple industry and he will go out of 
business.

The Bayer label for systemic fruit tree protection says:
"Place around the tree and the tree is protected from all pests for a year. 
"

If you think about it Bill I think you will figure out what chemical company
is pushing to get the organophosphates pulled from the market.

On the front lines are the growers using chemicals and the beekeepers doing
the pollination. In the background are the chemical companies ( making
billions!) and their lackey labs trying to prove eating foods with chemical
contamination is ok or bees eating nectar & pollen has no effect.

If properly protected the applicator is the only person effected by
organophosphates AND the orchard I speak of has NEVER had a health issue. 
The
organophosphates are not found in food if applied properly.
If the time period is waited after the last spray for harvest the food is
safe. With the neonicotinoids the neonicotinoids are still being pumped into
all parts of the plant the day of harvest.

There are almost always two sides to an issue. Bill posted one side and I
the other.

There are no winners or losers in internet discussion only different sides 
of
the issue posted.

Thanks for the post Bill. Unlike you I have a horse in this race!

bob

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