Hello Joe and All,



>The configuration of domestic beekeeping hive bodies, necessitate that all
the comb be small cell, due to the lack of this type of seasonal broodnest
transition found in elongated feral nests

I would say if keeping bees in a single Lang then you might need all the
frames small cell but in two deeps the bees mainly use 5 frames up and five
down for brood rearing max.
IF
Not pushed to brood up by heavy feeding. Also If you add enough supers most
colonies will stove pipe up the middle their brood nest *when in two deeps*.

Bob said:
>However most commercial beekeepers realize IF they do not treat at least
>once a year then hives today hives start crashing with varroa.

Joe said:
>I agree, but  Penn State is now advising, to treat ONLY if needed.

I think its wonderful Penn State and many places with so called *beekeeping
schools* make these recommendations. However those people do not make a
living from bees. Big difference! Like I said earlier most commercial
beekeepers will treat for varroa at least once a year without giving a
second thought. Say you have got a large number of hives are you going to
treat as needed? Only treat a few hives in each yard?  Pay help making 10-17
an hour to place sticky boards in each hive?Go back and pick up? Count
mites?  Fuel cost are close to $3 a gallon and most bee trucks get less than
10 MPG.?
Commercial beekeepers will most likely test a few hives ( some only look at
drone brood)to see if treatment is needed but then all I know will treat the
whole yard.

University researchers simply walk outside to care for the hives most of the
time plus like a hobby beekeeper the hives to not need to support
themselves. Bottom line is not a problem.


> It took my bees about 3 seasons to get varroa down
to very low levels coming out of winter, but I used no controls.

I remember you have said the above before. I am willing to keep some small
cell hives around for three years to see what you are seeing but wouldn't
just installing some Russian bees in large cell hives be easier?

 I left 400 hives of Russian bees untreated without varroa & PMS problems. I
sent a large sample of bees to the  Wentworth Military college biology lab
for TM checking . One TM was turned up. I could never turn up any TM in the
Russians so sent the samples out to a friend to test as a classroom project.
The Russians always had a varroa load but I never saw a Russian hive with
PMS. The Russian bee is a genetic solution to varroa but some of us hard
headed beekeepers always looking at the bottom line figure an Italian and a
treatment makes better business.

>That’s why I found it odd that they would want to wait to see your
results,,,, didn’t make a heck of allot a’ sense to me.

I don't believe the list is waiting for my results. They did not wait when I
tested the Russian bee. I am sure the list will be interested in my
observations. Some will say proves nothing. Words never bother me so not a
problem. If a single beekeeper gleans a useful bit of information from me
then I am happy! I will be fair and honest as I have got no agenda. Also
like I told Dee the night we talked.
I am in no hurry to test. I run a beekeeping business first and test second.
Hopefully I will feel like I can spare 165 frames of brood this year right
before the honey flow to start the test. If not I will start after the main
honey flow.

When Peter inquired about my supercedure test (150 colonies) I said off list
. I care about finding out exactly the amount of supercedure of queens but
not enough to spend days digging through strong hives of 60,000 bees at my
busiest time in August to find each queen. I will verify marked queens next
spring when she is easy to find and I have got plenty of free time. I also
plan to run the test two years unless I see a huge amounts of queen
problems.

>We are referring to these small cell beekeepers that you said they would
scrap small cell if your testing of small cell failed.

You guys have begged for a test! So far I am the only person to step
forward. I will do various ways of testing small cell and share what I see.
I have no agenda.
Also I have been very honest about what I plan to do.
 2 frames of small cell (wood frames with crimp wire small cell foundation)
in the center of the brood nest of a hive on a flow thinking of swarming. 82
hives involved. 165 frames sitting ready to go in the building right now.
Once drawn correctly I can configure the hives however I want to test. Dee
wants me to try some fully drawn (which I agreed to) but I am not a big fan
of fully drawn.. However a friend in Australia ( Terry Brown)and another in
California ( Shad Sullivan)is testing the fully drawn small cell also. So
the three of us can compare notes.
I spoke with Australia this morning (night in Australia) and they said the
would call as soon as new information on the cerana find happens.

>  Due to the new rules here on Bee-L about quoting others and name
dropping, I can't mention his name.

There are no new rules to that effect only what Randy posted.

 I have attended many presentations of Marion Ellis and his workshop in
Nebraska. I first met Marion Ellis when he came to do a presentation when I
was president of the Midwestern Beekeepers in 1993. We have been friends a
very long time. If I did not get what he was trying to say in his
presentations correct then I apologize. I would say I have attended 10 or so
presentations of his. Mostly on varroa mites and treatments.  Always had the
utmost respect for his beekeeping skills.

. I have been on this list a very long time. I would guess over 6,000 posts.
I attend many beekeeping meetings and like to report what I hear and learn
for the benefit of those which are unable to attend. Over the last almost
fifty years I have made beekeeping and researcher contacts from one end of
the U.S. to the other plus out of country.

The moderators on BEE-L are fair. They keep a close leash on me. I also
after so many years know what I can get approved and what I can't. Not all
my posts are approved! Surely comes as no surprise! Some  times Aaron tells
me why but usually does not. I never argue but go back and rewrite the post.

>and how a micro population of honeybees under certain conditions can bring
down healthy colonies in the surrounding area with them.

I happen to agree with your friend as I have seen the above with my own
eyes.

> But what I have found was
that being on small cell allowed me to drop all the treatments.

 In my opinion this is the part which causes you and Dee problems. You both
surely can see how complicated beekeeping problems are today.
varroa,tracheal mites,Virus, nosema ceranae, chalkbrood,EFB & AFB.  Those of
us which keep bees for a living fight the above all the time. Usually when
something sounds to good to be true I have sound my gut feelings were
correct.

I was around when all we worried about was foulbrood. Sadly those days seem
a long time ago!

Enjoyed the discussion!

Me too! I will talk beekeeping for days on end.

Dee said her and I would most likely spend countless hours talking
beekeeping.if I came to visit. I am sure we would.

>Good luck with your experiment!

Thanks! You have my word I will be honest and only report exactly what I
see. I actually would like to get the results you see! However I won't
report things I do not see. I won't do a test with 4-6 frames of small cell
in the brood nest and say all the frames were small cell.

Bob


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