From: eric slayton <[log in to unmask]>

>when you get back to the issue which is a cage trial that shows undetectable levels of indaclopramid have sub lethal effects in a caged bee trial and then everyone attacked it because it is a caged trial, few of us including my self have read the paper to know how it was conducted.  

thank you eric...i've been trying to figure out how to get back to this subject.

i've had lots of correspondence and discussion with beekeepers (particularly in europe) on this issue.  certainly there are some that think all pesticides should be immediately banned...and it is difficult to have a discussion with them (i don't even try).

on the other hand, some are very intelligent critical thinkers (and they can have a discussion in a foreign language...something i can't do).  almost universally, the topic of neonics came down to my position:

"if you want to blame neonics on your bee problems, we've got to do residue testing so we can prove it."

and the response was:

"the testing game is useless.  the neonics degrade quickly in the bee, an more importantly, affect the bees at undetectable levels."

about a year and a half ago, when i was having one of these discussions, i emailed Jerry B. to ask if they also tested for metabolites of the neonics when they are looking for residues...his response was "of course!"

you are correct that we have not read the study from pettis (funded by the ARS and NAPPC)...neither has the spokesperson from bayer who publicly dismissed it.  

what is most disturbing is that this specific information (that undetectable levels of imidacloprid negatively affect bees) seems to have been presented for a film being shown in europe before being made available to beekeepers, farmers, and govt officials in the united states (where the study was funded).  Ernie pointed out what appears to be a mention of this study, but there was nothing in the blurb about "undetectable levels".

did they look at metabolites?  what test were they using, and what is the limit of detection (i've seen some APHIS studies on imidacloprid that didn't look for levels below 30ppb)?

no, we don't know the details....but am i wrong in thinking that we should?  that if it's ok for such details to be shared in a film that we shouldn't have to wait 2+ years for publication?

deknow

             ***********************************************
The BEE-L mailing list is powered by L-Soft's renowned
LISTSERV(R) list management software.  For more information, go to:
http://www.lsoft.com/LISTSERV-powered.html

Guidelines for posting to BEE-L can be found at:
http://honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm