> OK then, what about this quotation from an earlier posting. Referring to
> a site as 'a urinal' is not very constructive language as far as I am
> concerned...
Oh, is *that* what you were referring to? (I thot Susan had sent you a
note). Personally, I thought Andy was holding back and being pretty
moderate and polite. He didn't use the words we all use in private, now
did he? Did he?
> ...They are a minority grouping with strong and rigid ideals, to which
> they are perfectly entitled, as are you and I. I am not an organic fan
> and probably never will be, but they have rights, and one of them is to
> specify the type and nature of the food they want to eat, just like
> Jews, Moslems or anyone else.
Sorry. Ya see, I didn't realise that all those other folks had their food
requirements written up as US secular law. Now that I got that, I'd hate
to see the 'organic' folks left out. So, now I guess it does make perfect
sense that the guys who abuse the word 'organic' (which has nothing to do
with wholesome and pure) should get to have their irrational requirements
-- no matter these terms cannot be met on this Earth let alone the
US of A -- made into law and appear to the ignorant as being extra high
quality -- and an ideal for which all mere producers should strive.
> Also no-one was taking the consumers part in this and it is essential to
> consider balanced evidence to reach a balanced view.
I doubt that is true. You can't stay in business here without being in
touch with the consumer of your products and I for one spend more time
consuming than producing (I'm consuming as we speak), so I assume it goes
without saying, but maybe not. I think many of us are offended at the
dishonesty implicit in the whole 'organic' thing.
If we really have to look at purity and safety issues, we all know there
are real ones that far outrank those of the 'organic' lobby. We may not
have gotten down to it here lately, but there are real concerns, such as
the question as to whether some people are allergic to cane or beet sugar
components and at what levels. Drug residues are always on our minds as
are pesticides and whether they get into honey and pollen; the question
of metals in contact with honey and the effect of mice in equipment are
perrenial topics. What about polymer migration? We're not as stupid as
some imply. These are the real matters that should be of concern and all
the tomfoolery about how you mate your queens is a dangerous distraction.
Maybe some day when we run out of problems and get down to that one it'll
have greater relative importance.
Andy is probably more observant, conscientious and aware than most of us
and has written here before about his concerns about pollen as food for
humans and his experiences as a pollen collector. As we have remind
people from time to time his speech and writing tends to the picturesque,
but is some of the most valuable and unpretentious on this list. I
personally enjoy his humour and the whacks he takes at things. So do some
of the civil servants who bear the brunt of his pressure. I've felt it
too.
> I also did not say standards are bad, indeed in North America they will
> be among the best, but we will all be aware that there are rogue
> operators in every market from whom all good operators deserve
> protection.
I like Mom and appple pie too.
> Please now read this little bit from an earlier posting of your own. 'If
> this keeps you up nights, think about this: The coming of HACCP
> regulations are going to be a real problem.' Possibly a fact for some,
> but not really a statement likely to give anyone a 'feelgood factor'
> about HACCP, and could be interpreted as contradicting your later
> position.
I don't think anyone should be lulled into feeling good about any new
power in the hands of any government. I has looked and continues to
look like a real problem on the horizon and I have my binoculars in hand.
We're getting precious little help and consultation here in advance
partially because there is so little knowledge in either government or
private hands here.
In that regard I have a thought. You seem really happy about HACCP; maybe
you'd like to post your HACCP manual for us to take a gander at so we can
feel better. I'll volunteer a website if you want to email me the text.
It could be up for all to see tomorrow.
(Aside to the crowd: here I am talking website and I am not maintaining
the one I have very well. If any of you have been trying to use the bee
ads site and having problems, you are not the only one. MicroSloth
revised FrontPage and for quite a while I couldn't get into my server
myself to maintain it. But everything is fine now and I plan to fix it as
soon as I get done arguing with Murray, probably).
> On the organic issue it will involved sitting down with that group and
> reaching some kind of agreement, which is then enforced by both parties.
Which two of the three parties now invoved do you mean?
> >> It is wise to break you batch size down to as low as is reasonably
> >> achievable... <etc.>
> I would have thought lawsuits would be a pretty potent fear in North
> America. It certainly is for any insurer we have approached for our
> North America product liability cover.
Frankly, I doubt any of us think about that much. How about you Andy?
> I disagree with you on the safety issue, WE must balance the two issues,
> which in any case I do not consider diametrically opposed to each other.
I dragged the following original quote back in here since it was
conveniently omitted and allowed erection of yet another straw man:
You: > > It is wise to break you batch size down to as low as is
reasonably achievable... The batch in question may need to be
condemned, so the smaller it is the better protected you are.< <
Me: >> Now this is an interesting argument. But it may be exactly and
diametrically wrong--if we are talking *food safety* which was mentioned a
few lines up as being the topic. If we are considering only lawsuits, then
perhaps your argument has merit. FWIW, It has often been argued that one
reason for the improvement in public nutrition and health in this era is
the fact that our diet comes from *a very large sample* of the foods and
sources available, diluting any possible buildup of poisons and nutritional
deficiencies that might be found in any subsample.> >
> I regard them as alike because we do not sell to large packers, we are
> the packer, and the producer, and we have a trade reputation to guard
> and by doing properly so we will keep our customers.
None of this has directly to do with food safety. It is all about
protecting your butt -- and your business.
> Escaping responsibility is merely a by product of good practice and in no
> way forms any part of our primary considerations.
That's not the way it sounds. And you go on about defending yourself
using HACCP and some motherhood statements, but I'll delete that for
brevity.
> Debate like this can be quite constructive, at least so long as it is
> carried on in a civilised manner. As you can gather I have no fear of
> good argument properly constructed, indeed I quite enjoy it.
The fact had not entirely escaped me. <G>
> The subject of age and experience came up.
> Just for your information we operate around 1700 hives, all migratory. We
> have 21 employees, of whom 12 are year round. We pack over 75 tonnes of
> speciality honeys, of about 25 varieties, some of which are only a single
> drum, plus a wide variety of other foods, over 70 lines in all. We import
> from 12 countries. We export to around 20 countries, USA included. We do
> all our own export procedures and documentation. We do NOT handle organic
> honey. I am 42 years old and both own and run this business. I am 2nd
> generation in the business.
Well I wasn't trying to get anything going, and maybe I shouldn't (to keep
Andy's imagery) get into a pissing contest with you here since it is in
such bad taste, but what the heck -- it's new year and I haven't done
anything really stupid and ignorant yet, so here goes...
Ya, I feel sorry for ya. I know how it is. Don't let it getcha down.
If it makes you feel any better, I'm pretty small too; I only have 2,200
or so hives. A buddy down the road has 10,000 and there are about 30
guys bigger than me in Alberta alone. We can move in a moment, but
usually don't, so I guess I'm not very migratory But that could change
any time. (I do go out once in a while with a forklift and move them
across the yard just for fun). We only have 7 people or so in the winter
but I don't know for sure since I don't have to count them -- I know them
all by name. We got out of specialty honies a while back, 'cause my wife
is a serious painter and would rather make art than get sticky. We got
tired of being the biggest Ross Rounds producer in the world (I think),
and we stopped exporting a few years back, except a little now and then
to our friends in the good old USA, God bless em. We hire people to do
the dirty (paper)work (Gee I hate this metaphor). *All* our honey is
organic - whatever that is, but we don't bother to tell anyone. I am 52
years old and I work for my wife and the bank. My kids slave alongside
when they are not in the university pub or out racing catamarans in Bemuda
and places like that. My great grandfather was the first I know of to keep
bees in our family here in Canada and my daddy was the president of his
local bee association until his untimely death. Anyhow, as you can see I'm
far to modest to tell you about my accomplishments and I noticed that you
are kinda shy too. Maybe some time we'll have a hagus and really get to
know each other.
In the meantime this is turning out to be like arguing with Jack Griffiths
(or Andy for that matter). More and more quotes and more and more
topics.
Later.
Allen
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