> > While the answers received here so far are typical of advice given by
> > amateurs, and also what most of the the books recommend, they are not in
> > line with what most commercial beekeepers in North America know to be
> > true.
 
> It intrigues me to note that "amateurs" and "books" are so easily
> discounted and "Commercial truth" elevated as correct beekeeping.
 
Well, I'm a bit ticked with the clique of amateurs who write books and
confirm to one another the tales they pass off as wisdom, since I wasted
years and *many* thousands of dollars believing their advice when I
was younger and did not know any better.
 
It *really* annoys me to have people parroting that patent BS as if it
were the *only* truth --- and taking in another crop of suckers who will
likely carry on the tradition without testing it.
 
If I hear another wise scribe say that starting with all new equipment is
the only way, I'm gonna scream.  This line of pap was started years back
by the manufacturers who also controlled the bee mags and books, and still
hasn't died out since it is repeated like gospel by people who don't know
any other way -- because they did not try.  IMHO, it is a formula for
staying a beginner.
 
None of those writers of beginner books could make a living handling bees.
 This is the acid test of truth in my mind.  Walter Kelley was a welcome
exception. When I read 'How to Keep Bees and Sell Honey', I said  "At
last! -- a real book about real beekeeping"  This is not to say that 'The
Hive and the Honeybee' is not a great reference book, and that the more
recent editions of the 'ABC & XYZ...' aren't pretty helpful. (The earlier
editions of ABC...  were disgraceful)
 
> It is interesting that the day I spent with the state inspector looking
> at just one commercial operation we found two hives of AFB, and that
> from random sampling.
 
I *was* a bee inspector for years and can assure you that there are good
and bad operators in both groups.  However, howcum no one ever asks the
question: "How much AFB is acceptable?"   A touch of AFB is not the end
of the world, nor is it the indicator of a bad practice.  It just happens
(Even in NZ and Aus) and usually it will not cause you any more bother
than a zit.    It can even happen to you no matter how much expensive new
equipment you buy and how carefully you avoid used.
 
> ... I would hope that the voice of "amateurs", especially when the
> "books" agree with them, not be so quickly dismissed.
 
Well, why not just buy the books and read them?  I have done so and and
continue to do so.   Many of my posts are inspired by what I read or have
read and the fact that it is incomplete or questionable to me.  I assume
that everyone has read -- or should have -- the books, and that what we
are doing here is something a bit more advanced.
 
If this group (BEE-L) were just about the answers that are in the books, I
wouldn't be here, since a book is fast, cheap, and easy to read and I don't
have to plug it in.  It simply does not make sense to clutter a list like
this with regurgitated material.  I would hope to hear personal experience
and advice from those who have tried doing things more than one way, and of
course discussion on this.
 
You'll notice that when I write, I am usually putting out what I have
*personally* learned and experienced *first hand* over twenty-five years.
A lot of it is in direct contrast and contradiction to the lore of the
backlot book-writing crowd.  That's what I'm here for: real thoughts; real
experience.   I should also say here that most of your stuff is pretty
good, Bill in case you think I'm picking on you.  I'm not picking on
anyone.  (I may be picking on some ideas though).
 
For survival of this list as a worthwhile source of info, there has to be
some limit to how low the level of discussion can go.  There has to be
some limit to how often the same question is covered, or as I said in my
original post, the older members will simply leave and go elsewhere.
sci.agriculture.beekeeping was created to handle the really basic and
chatty stuff, but a lot seems to come here.
 
I gather Aaron is contemplating some form of moderation.  I know he
doesn't find the idea appealing -- both on philosophical grounds and the
simple fact that it is extra work, but I also know that someday soon it
will happen simply because of a few who post 'me too' after quoting an
epistle -- and things about plutonium -- and then descend to trying to
insult one another.
 
This list is near 800 in members now.  If everyone just posts everything
that comes into his head or starts repeating booklore, there will be no
room for the good stuff.
 
So what I am saying is, newbies, do your homework.  *Then* ask questions
that reflect a **basic** knowledge of bees and beekeeping.  And oldbies --
just 'cause you read a book once and/or had a hive or two, don't just run
for your keyboard and type out what you recollect from your reading.
 
Flames to /dev/nul
 
Allen (DAR)