Hello Allen, Dee & All,

I thought Allen was referring to the early days of rebuilding the outfit 
going from large cell to small cell also.
The well documented return to a large number of hives on small cell was 
certainly a long process with little monetary returns from where I sit.

 I do feel compelled to comment on nosema because I think maybe Dee might 
not fully understand how quickly nosema ceranae can wipe out an operation.

>> Saw nosema NO PROBLEM as identified by Dr Bromenshenk,

Do you mean spore counts were less than a million per bee?

Were both nosema ceranae & nosema apis present in samples?

>> Oldest samples I have found Id for nosema were in 1959 at Beltsville, Md, 
>> looking at samples from all around the USA

I have been searching myself and so far nosema ceranae dates to around 2000 
( maybe farther but not confirmed by the USDA-ARS to me).

I would say most likely the 1959 date was for nosema apis.

As far as nosema apis goes it was always the silent killer. Adult bees 
heavily infected died in the last two weeks of life which for me meant I 
needed to control nosema to get a large honey crop and heavily infected bees 
winter poorly.

I always tested and controlled nosema apis in my hives and thought fumidil 
use payed dividends rather than cost money.

Then nosema ceranae poped up its ugly head and has cost beeks millions in 
lost hives and production.
Never given its proper due concerning the role it played in CCD in my 
opinion.

I lost most of two yards this fall to nosema ceranae by reusing boxes not 
treated with acetic acid. Live and learn.

I do believe that nosema ceranae has been around long enough that some hives 
can tolerate a spore level which will kill another hive. However those hives 
which seem to tolerate those 5 million spore loads ( Randy Oliver personal 
conversation) WILL NOT *in my opinion* survive a hard winter in the north. 
Maybe California, Florida or Texas but not two months of winter confinment.

You could control  nosema apis when wintered on two gallons of per label 
fumidl but per label fumidil  WILL NOT from my tests control a heavy nosema 
ceranae problem at per label strength during a long winter confinement.

Because:

When heavily infected the bees quit feeding and STARVE to death. If they can 
not feed on honey then they can not vibrate their wings and generate heat.

THE hive found in spring dead from nosema cerane will look exactly like a 
hive dead from cold mainly because cold was what killed the hive as the bees 
could not consume honey to generate heat.

It is my opinion that  nosema cerane  has been killing hives for a long time 
in commercial operations but the losses were blammed on other causes. I do 
not by any maens have all the answers concerning nosema ceranae but have 
learned a few things along the way.

Some bees have certainly adjusted to high N. ceranae spore loads (reasons 
unknown) *but* even those bees when transfered to comb which needs a acetic 
acid treatment soon crash from my tests.

"Live and let die" is a wonderful thought but when I am really sick I seek 
the help of a medical doctor and medicene!

bob

Ps. What I have said above has been discussed and agreed as fact by some 
very large Midwest beeks.
There are two types of beeks. Thsoe with nosema ceranae and those soon to 
get nosema ceranae.

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