Hi to all on BEE-L
Mike Allsopp wrote:
From the USA point of view, the attitude should be the same
in either event. In the first instance - keep out all
capensis in case you get the "bad" one. In the second
instance - keep out all capensis because they are all bad
ones.
Reply:
So you are saying there are "good" capensis and "bad"
capensis then.
Why not use the good capensis to control the bad then?
Could you explain the difference here between the two for
better understanding?
By the way, as I have posted here on BEE-L previously, I
consider thelytoky a very good trait and a necessary part
of a whole bee concept. I have seen no bad traits with our
bees.I would also like to compare to what you call "good"
traits, as there must a another side to the bad.
Mike Allsopp also wrote:
Then, to answer your question, what would happen if "bad"
capensis got into the USA commercial stock? I guess pretty
much what occurred in South Africa. Within 12-18 months,
beekeepers would report odd things in their colonies. On
inspection, you will find large numbers of queenless
colonies, often with lots of spotty WORKER brood. Will look
like the brood of a very poor queen. There will be a lot of
disturbance and fighting in these colonies, but almost no
defensiveness. The bees causing the problems would
generally be very black (almost uniformly), very shiny,
very flighty and with extended abdomens. These laying
worker colonies may persist for many months, but will
eventually dwindle to nothing.
Reply:
I know full well what shiny little black bees are and with
wings longer then butts (are your wings longer also, by the
way?), but I have seen none of the points you list above,
for if I had we would not have been able to fight through
varroa, bottoming out at 104 colonies and then build back
up drawing combs, and colonies to about 700 now and holding
good through one of the worst dryest droughts in the
history of Arizona with fires all over the place. Yet we
are taking honey now while others are not, our bees are
staying in place without swarming and seem very fine in
spite of things.
Also just like grandpa did and Ed's dad did, I (we) supply
our black stock both locally and to other western states
and no one has ever seemed to have had a problem with it.
Also it has been verified by DNA analysis (USDA) that our
bees are like the bees of San Diego Calif similar to
caucasians, but not caucasian or they would not be similar,
what ever the USDA means by that!
Certainly if the above was found in commercial lines there
would have been a big public outcry by now, but there has
been none.
HOw did your "bad" traits override your "good" capenis
traits in S. Africa? You talk about different periods of
this happening before. How has the situation changed over
the years? What is different now compared to earlier
periods with your small black bees, that you cannot correct
the situation now? Has migratory beekeeping anything to do
with the situation? Has moderinization have anything to do
with the situation?
Mike Allsopp wrote:
Signs are often quite subtle and ambiguous, especially in
the beginning. Parts can be interpreted as failing queens;
or bad foulbrood infections; or robbing; or mild pesticide
poisoning.
Reply:
This I find strange! I would equate this to parasitic mites
and accompanying secondary infections. Also change of
internal structure of the broodnest. This leads me to think
modernization may be playing a part in this, but I could be
wrong.
Mike Allsopp also wrote:
And the bad news is that if it is in one colony in an
apiary, then it is in all colonies in that apiary (but at
different stages of infection). And if it is in one apiary
of a commercial beekeeper, then it tends to be in all
(because of they way bees are moved). And if it is one
region, then it tends to be in all (because of migration).
From what I know about USA commercial beekeeping
(migrations & package bees), if it got started, it
would spread like wildfire. Better not to get it started.
Reply:
Knowing our bees and thelytoky and how we have worked them
back up and are breeding again like in the 1980s again on
same program, I would be more inclined to say the above
parallels the spread of infections and parasitic mites and
badly inbred bees. Certainly something to consider! Yet, we
have bred through this problem of mites and don't believe
in inbreeding. So something else must be going on in S.
Africa.
But you allude above to "bad" capenis traits, so there must
be "good" ones, however, there seems to be few left in your
area. Something major must have changed to cause this and I
am very interested hear more from you.
Very best regards,
Dee A. Lusby
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