Charles
I don't believe in lying or hiding things.  I also don't think those what we are talking about haveing such a firm line.  It would be differrent if it was known exactly what was causing something to work.  In randy's case, he is cutting the verables down to bare minimum with the pure factor of resistance being holding mite counts down to bare min.  He is most likily not going to come up with bees that have a b type infection that innoculates his bees from an A type infection because his whole plan is to make a low mite bee.  Even he says the usefullness of the bee when taken out of his controlled area will be impacted by what is around it. So even after the fabulous success that he is going to have, his garrantee to a buyer is going to more reflect what those other bee keepers you mentioned bees did when given to other bee keepers and it will still come down to a well you must have did this wrong.  There is just not way to contol everything.  This is not speaking for randy but is reconizing randy himself in his responce on this thread said along the lines, "till everyone has them there is risk".

I did read a randy blog today that he listed all the differrent things that show differrent ways and places the bees have made progress giving hope and so know he used all that knowlage on picking his path.

I do agree that things go extinct, I also say that places that had die offs that have rebounded have given hope.  If we have several differrent studies that show things that are happening (not all the same) with there even being question of learned behavior or inviromental factors having an impact but not all of it known yet, I don't think it is easy to just talk about agreeing about what things mean.  I see your point that we need a point of referance.  I can not seem to talk about all that is going on in the same way I might have a conversation about what randy is doing.  That is where having a strict when we say treatment free or resistant be that it is hard to have strict definition on genetics, at least for me.  I do understand what you are saying.  The question in my mind circle more around are actions being taken towards strengthening the genetics helping more then hurting and that is were a perfect definition becomes muddy cause those actions could help a little or help a lot or hurt.  Hard lines when talking about actions are harder and come in many levels compared to measuring genetics.  So if you are measuring the end game after it is done, it will be easy but if you are discussing what helps in doing it, it becomes harder.

If we put it this way, if you are putting out a spicific plan of maximum benefit for a professional wanting to get to a goal as fast as possible it would be one way.  If you were putting out something that was for those who's commitment was to have bees but not be the researcher/breeder but who's actions might slow down what the researcher came up, is the non-researcher keeping bees in a way that may help the researchers bees have a better chance.  So if the genetics are weakened by chemical treatment keeping us at the same place and there are more non-researchers then there are researchers, how do the non-researchers help with out becoming professional researchers and how do they talk about their successes and failures with out making extraordinary claims.  

Even if randy is successful, it is going to suck if his success has to stay in his own apary cause it did not catch on and make other areas like he is his.  I do understand the frozen chicken adds and the smoking example but also understand that the hope in the places that have bees that show some advancement and believe there may be many places like that that are being tested by small guys with success and not measured yet and that should be heard incase there is something there to maybe look at harder.  I don't believe in lies but am not sure when talking genetics that knowing as many cases as possible and trying to put honest merit to them could hold a nugget or two.  

I keep thinking that hearing more ways and then having some kind of talent for picking through what is bull and what needs furthure look is more of what is needed.  Now don't get me wrong, I don't mind the weaknesses of things like what I am doing being pointed out, Things like open breeding goes for average rather then the one extra ordinary and with no control of that the plan sucks compared to what could be done.
Does that make any sense at all?

gww

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