-> What needs to be shown that these chemicals are harmful in the field, 
under actual usage conditions. There is substantial evidence which shows 
they are not.

>Many studies have looked for such effects and not found them.


In my opinion BEE-L is the only place on the net saying the above. Slowly 
even many respected scientists are stepping forward. I was at a state 
meeting recently and a respected researcher said there were four (number he 
used) studies which convinced the researcher that the neonics were causing 
some (certainly not all!) problems with bees, bumble bees and native 
pollinators. The same researcher said the opposite a few short years ago.

There is safety in numbers for researchers.

The chemical companies like to point to some beekeepers in some areas not 
seeing issues as proof their products are safe for bees.  A study using four 
hives next to a few acres of canola as proof when bees fly over thousands of 
acres. The EPA bought it but most knowledgeable beekeepers did not.

Even the word nicotine is a dirty word around me. When I visit the family 
burial plot I see many members which their deaths were *linked* ( not 
provable some say!) to nicotine. The youngest was a mentor & died spitting 
up blood from lung cancer at the age of 35. I was by his side when he drew 
his last breath.

As a non smoker I now help carry their caskets or pay my respects at 
funerals. *Clearly* now I could say I was right or I bet now you wished you 
took Bob's advice.

My friends were so sure I was wrong. I took much ridicule through the years 
giving the opinion tobacco causes health issues but my friends bout the 
tobacco lobby hype instead.
Toss those cancer sticks in the trash always brought laughter.

We all agree by now that the neonics are toxic to bees at certain levels. 
Bees are ingesting at documented levels in pollen & nectar.

Its the same old story as with tobacco. When is the level a problem.

I am a pall bearer Monday for a cigarette smoker which died of cancer. With 
his last breath he said was not the smoking which gave him cancer. He leaves 
a wife and child not yet in school.
The bees and the smokers appear normal.

sublethal effects?

longterm effects?

I agree comparing cigarettes to the neonics is a stretch but the issue *in 
my opinion* is similar in many ways.

bob 

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