I wrote:
>
>>What does it mean organised sounds? Chiming clocks produce organised sound
>>but they are not music in my view.  I have stood in the street and heard
>>a car starting and been reminded of a piece of music.  Likewise when
>>a workman bangs a nail into wood or a bird chirps.

David Stewart replied:
>Look, Bob, you know and I know that you are just being difficult.
>
>No.
>
>Don't argue.
>
>You are.

I will write 50 times 'Must not be difficult'.
It's because of my suppressed childhood which was also devoid of
'decent' music.

Me:
>>I hope that most people will accept that music is in the ear of the
>>beholder.  So, given this we find that the foundations of many of our
>>discussions here are insecure.

David:
>By your own choice.  It is the intention of the person making the noise
>which defines whether it is music or not.  Whether it is good music or
>not...  or should I say likable music or not...

Let me amend your definition slightly then:
"Music is writing of a plan for, or the production of,  conscious
organised sound". Of course now some bright spark will come back and
say "What do you mean by conscious?".

Me again:
>>Thus, we cannot hope to arrive at an acceptible definition of a
>>composer's/conductors greatness or arrive at a concensus about
>>over/underrated works.

David:
>Well, we can't do that, not because we cannot agree what is music or not
>but because CM more than any other 'genre' covers the ultimate in musical
>greatness, and at that level you cannot hope to be totally objective.
>Perhaps in a few millenia when our brains are that much more developed we
>might be able to say for sure whether Beethoven was greater than Mozart or
>whomever you may wish to set against each other.  You may find that
>Beethoven was as great a composer for his era/style as Mozart was for his.
>We are at a stage now though that we can claim beyond a shadow of a doubt
>that Beethoven was a greater composer than (s)he who wrote the music for
>the Spice Girls.

In a few millenia people will look back and say "why didn't those
20c folks put Haydn at the top of the tree and why did they keep
using Beethoven and Mozart as examples?". But, I agree, unreservedly,
Beethoven and Mozart are both better than the Spice girls writers.

Bob Draper
[log in to unmask]