Andrew Carlan Wrote:

>...  If imitation is the highest form of flattery, Beethoven was publicly
>tipping his hat to Haydn.  Beethoven's first is right out of Haydn.  His
>op. 18 string quartets continue the Haydn tradition.  His music certainly
>doesn't show any proclivity to Mozart.

It's not just the first.  Every one shows some influence.  But the most
obvious are 1, 2, 4(typical slow Haydnesque start), 6 (storm influenced
by Haydn's 'Seasons'),7,8.

(Incidentally a lot of people think Beethoven invented the scherzo.  Wrong,
it was Haydn!!  Beethoven was, of course, the first to incorporate it into
a symphonic movement)

>If Beethoven was a revolutionary, it was only at odd moments.  The Eighth
>and the late quartets are Haydn raised to the nth degree.  Just recall
>Haydn's "Seven Last Words of Christ," his last (I think) string quartet.

I hear the seven last words all over the place in other composer's music.

>And another good fellow reminded us that he discovered Handel around
>the time of "The Consecration of the House" Overture, probably his best
>overture.  It should really be titled "Beethoven's Consecration of Handel."
>And that writer proved Beethoven was not reluctant to speak openly of his
>admiration of Handel.  He also started to speak in awe of Bach.

I've just listened to 'The Consecration..'.  I hear a jot of Handel's water
music after 1.5 mins there's also a smigen of Mozart there.  But this
work's 90% pure Haydn.  Particularly the Rondo finales of the late
symphonies.

>Sure Beethoven took a few lessons from Haydn and it was an utter disaster.
>Why not, Beethoven had already sucked Haydn dry before he ever met him.
>There was nothing more to learn from him.

I agree about the sucking dry.  But, it has been made clear before why the
lessons were a disaster.  Haydn and Beethoven were Innovative composers not
people who merely composed in the current form.  Beethoven wanted to learn
about the basics of composition Haydn was the wrong man to do this.

>Believe me, have I ever lied to you before? Beethoven knew the greatness
>of Haydn.  He showed it up front where it counted, not just his early
>compositions, but through his entire life.

There is of course the famous painting where Beethoven waits to meet Haydn.
I believe he looks diffident here, attentive but with his head bowed.  He
knew he was in the presence of a great master.

Remember that at this time Haydn was the wealthiest, most famous composer
in the world.  Sure there was jealousy from Beethoven.  That's one of the
things that spured him on.

I'm beginning to like you Andrew and yes I like Nielsen as well as Haydn,
Brahms, Beethoven, Sibelius etc.

Bob Draper
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