Stirling Newberry:

>Works of a programatic or quasi-programatic nature had existed for
>quite some time prior to the Wagner-Brahms debate, there are a couple of
>Dittersdorf symphonies which have explicit programs, there were overtures
>to stage plays and finally the examples of Beethoven's 3rd, 6th and 9th
>symphonies.  One with an implied program, the other with programatic
>movement titles, and the last with text.

Yes, what about Kuhnau's "Scenes from the Bible"?

>In the 1820's at least one piano concerto was written with a program,
>though the program was suppressed by its author - Karl Maria von Weber.

Are you referring to the Konzertstuck.  The program was not written by the
composer AFAIK, but did Weber really supressed it? Do you mean that it
wasn't included in print?

>When all is said and done, the distance from Mendelssohn's "Hebrides" to
>Liszt's "Mazeppa" is rather small, but the implication was quite weighty -
>it was a rationalisation - far from the only one - for overthrowing an
>entire means of structuring music.

I don;'t think they overthrowed anything, instead they wanted everything
to be allowed.  Liszt also used the sonata form rather frequently.

>...  Brahms, for his part, did not take part in sniping against
>Wagner, but this is largely because Wagner's work was not in the concert
>hall.  Brahms did not have kind words for Liszt or Bruckner, the new
>germans who were on his turf.

I don't know if Brahms was involved in the sniping against Wagner or not,
but he was heavily involved in the Liszt case.

>...  In 1840 every musician had to make the case for his own music.
>Mendelssohn, Berlioz, Chopin, Liszt and so on all had to push their own
>work, or the work of others who they admired.  In 1860 the concert society
>has begun to dominate musical cultural life.

Liszt pushed the works of other contemporary composers, but he was pretty
alone in that aspect.

Mikael
[log in to unmask]