At 12:25 PM 3/29/98 -0500, you wrote:
Hi Jerry and All Beekeepers,
Jerry, I always enjoy your comments and scientific reports and appreciate
your help but expect different then what I read here from any
scientist...beekeeper or not. My comments are critical but not to be taken
personal and should and could be applied to many in the bee science
community who use the tired old refrain "more scientific study needs to be
done before I will accept any opinion", which seems to talk down to us poor
lousy bee folks who are not near as dumb as we may pretend to be to the tax
man or bee regulator and only express our opinions here based on personal
thinking and experiences.
I believe we all have a right to express our opinion, and I respect yours
as I do the newest poster to this list or the guy with no hives who is just
thinking about keeping bees. At the same time I expect that these opinions
right or wrong can and should be challenged by others with differing views,
but do not accept that one opinion is necessarily wrong because scientific
research has NOT been done to show it to be right. It would be far better
if an opinion was wrong because research or experience had a different
result and would be good reason to change anyone's opinion but not because
science has not researched the subject yet or even plans to in the future
which in most things is not the case.
The continual challenge of any beekeeper's opinion because of the lack of
science does not add anything to resolving problems and changes only the
few with flex able opinions and in my opinion is the wrong path that so
many scientists seen to need to use, maybe only to express their own lack
of practicable experience or knowledge. I do agree that more scientific
study of bees is needed but because of this attitude expressed by so many
of the bee scientists for many years in the US I see little real beekeeper
support for increased or even continuing public funding of it. I talk often
to scientists who are just entomologists and chi mists, or you name it and
none of them talk down to me or any beekeeper because they recognize the
vast experience and knowledge beekeepers have in cross dimensional fields
of scientific interests and value the kind of hands on type of experience
most beekeepers have. We solve problems everyday without academic or
scientific help and live with those we can not solve. An exception would be
those beekeepers who use this list as most are "friendly" to bee science
and I think their opinions should be treated with a little
more...difference...will lets say a little different from the average every
day beekeeper who would never read a scientific bee paper and would like
them all removed from the beekeeping journal's and put into their place in
the entomology journals which at the least would give them more exposure to
real critics with doctorates.
It should be stated that much seen here does seem to leave this list and
make its way to the real world.<G>
I question why is it that so often if any beekeeper would suggests a common
action such as "MO smothering mites" without citing chapter and verse of
science text it always brings on the rhetoric "more research is needed"?
The truth may well be that "oil kills mites" or "essential oils kills
mites" and for most beekeepers who have a problem today this is all they
need or want to know. If it does not, they will also know that soon enough
and more times then not long before any scientific research can be done as
most science require years of planning before anything positive is even
started and then there is no guarantee that the solution will match with
the original problem. This is the problem of the bee scientists but does
little to address my problems which are today's problem and may or may not
be a problem years from today. There are not enough bee scientists to
expect that in any beekeepers ten lifetimes every idea, problem or anything
else bothering us as beekeepers will ever be run as an scientific
experiment and some things we will always have to do because of our own
experience or that of other beekeepers. These things are no less the right
thing to do because science has not approved of them first then those that
have been approved by scientific testing...much of which is never used by
anyone else including other scientists who's interest may only be in
proving the first scientist wrong anyway.
At the same time to cite lack of science and then cite lawful speed limits
of astronomical values without any reference to any laws and in which
states is hard to understand. (not to say you are wrong)
I am NOT a scientist just a reader and at many times what I read I do not
remember it as it was written so I always try to indicate what I write is
my opinion on what I may have experienced or heard from others or even
read,,, but I expect more from those with doctorates working with bees as
it is hard to tell the difference from their personal opinion from
scientific facts when so many times what a beekeepers writes is challenged
because his opinion or experience lacks scientific research. I want to
believe the science is correct, but if it is mixed with opinion that I have
not found by experience to be the way it is in my small world then a
problem develops with believing the science part. And I know from
experience that some scientists in beekeeping are not honest in their own
work, as in some "killer bee" research.
Having been a commercial beekeepers and I have always been one and I can
say for a fact that the majority of bees in the US that are moved long
distances are moved by common agricultural carriers who specialize in
transporting bees. The bee hives are netted to keep the bees from flying
off the load and causing problems. These trips are planned with NO stops
for fuel or food during daylight hours other then emergency except when the
weather is so cold the chance of any bees coming out is null.
During dry or warm weather movement arrangements are made ahead of movement
for watering stops. Some carry special equipment to make watering fast and
easy, others make arrangement for the use of them at pre arranged water
stops. Something that I have not seen much written about is what beekeepers
do before loading the hives and this includes some very efficient watering
systems that vary from beekeeper to beekeeper. I have helped load many
truck loads of 400-500 hives of bees most of the time without the need for
a veil because of the better watering systems in use today.
NO not everyone follows the shippers instruction but these drivers are soon
found out and eliminated from moving bees. And for sure some beekeepers
just throw a load on the truck with little care for the bees that fly off
and are lost or sting every living thing for miles around. We all pay a
price for this small minority and they sometimes find themselves and
property wrapped up in damage suits that no one really wins.
I know of no states that allow 85 mile per hour speed limits for these
commercial carriers that move the majority of bees cross country, but I am
not current with the laws and many of you know more on this subject then I
and would like you to cite those highways or states for me that commercial
trucks can go 85 so I will know and can inform others as they would be
interested if not down right shocked to think anyone driving with a 50,000
pound cargo of bee boxes would or could legally travel that fast.
How may loads of 400 to 500 hives have you moved, helped to load, or hired
moved in the last ten years? It seems to me that if we applied the same
scientific principals to the work so many others are doing we would serve
our selfs and others well. I am sure it was not intend to say we are doing
it all wrong because we do not have the scientific research needed to prove
we are right. We do have a very good success ratio and having bees die in
transit from suffixation is not one of our worry's today or even a minor
problem in moving bees for the majority of the bees and beekeepers who move
them. More hives of bees are lost in traffic accidents and they are, thank
God, rare.
Beekeepers have been watering bees for as long as they have been moving
them, in fact the cost of shipment of bees by train in the old days when
this was the preferred method always included the added cost for one person
to go along with the bees to water and care for them. Even the first
chartered air fright of bees had a bee man to care for them. I know of no
scientific research to show this extra care was necessary or do I see the
need for it today but I am positive that beekeeper experience of that day
gleaned them the knowledge to judge for themselves what was necessary to
ship their bees. It was easy to see when the cargo doors were opened on
that early air plane and sugar ran out that was not the way to do it and
expect the plane to make many trips. So walk in or dry sugar feeders were
used. Around here in the old days when bees were moved with a team of mules
water was also hauled for the animals and bees. Movement was at night and
during the day the team was released from the wagon to graze away from the
flying bees. One of the old time honey plants around here was named by
beekeepers because it grew so high it was a real job to recover the animals
when it was time to hitch them back up to the wagon loaded with bees. This
is "Jackass Clover", now a rare plant because it grew on flood plain land
that is now cultivated. It produced in the late summer or fall a very large
crop of light colored mild flavored honey. I have seen it grow so high that
I would have to climb on top of the cab of the truck to find the bee yard.
This I only add to make a point that beekeepers have some experience moving
bees without the benefit of up to date scientific research. I have left out
telling of those who moved their bees up and down the Sacramento river
system from blooming field to blooming field and how they over come their
problems for another story.
All one has to do is find at the end of his bee movement trip a large
number of his bees are dead to know something different needs to be done.
The fact is that today I see no problem with the way we are moving bees as
far as the health of the bees is concerned, interesting but not something I
would like to spend my time and money on.
At the same time it would be very productive to work out the bee
environmental problems that have been experienced in hauling bees enclosed
in a refrigerated van as that would contribute to the next advance in
moving bees when the public could be 100% protected from exposure to bees,
out of sight out of mind. I guess it could be said it is needed to do the
basic research on the netted loads to advance to the van stage of the
future.<G>
>As far as I can determine, the notion that Mineral Oil smothers mites is a
>"guess" promulgated by this list. It seems to be derived from the fact that
>Vaseline smothers mites.
Well what I have read is a little different from what you have read and I
know of no reason for the readers of this list to "promulgate" anything,
but their own personal opinions which I am sure comes from much more then
reading this list and includes some experience in many walks of life other
then beekeeping or beekeeping science, I call it common sense by virtue of
life's little experiences.
>Studies of various oils and greases have come up with other explanations.
>My first guess was that the bee became too slippery to hold on to (I'm
>joking).
It may be a joke to you but it was not to the people (bee scientists) who
proposed this as the mode of control with other substances . I hope they
have a sense of humor, of course they were not American and we all know all
others can not be trusted in beekeeping science especially those in India
who may have had the vampire mite a few years more to study then we have
but have such a poor record with hive bees.
> A better guess may be that the oil or grease interfers with the
>ability of the mite to properly find and identify its host (with some
>pretty good evidence that this is the case for the blind tracheal mite).
Here we go again with "guess" work from a "Bee Scientist", but from an
lowly bee keeper it would become a "joke" or group hysteria, I know you did
not want it read that way but that's how I could read it..
>Using enough oil to physically smother the mites would be pretty messy -
>and I would expect that much oil to be obviously harmful to bees.
Well for a fact I have looked at these small mites under low power and
small amount of material applied to them does make them look a mess. It
would take very little to smother them at least none I looked at lived, and
to the human eye would not be a detectable mess. Have you done research on
this or even looked at live mites in the lab on a greased slide so they
could not move out of view or are you just speaking "beekeeper talk" and
not scientific facts?
>Anyway, I am prepared to keep the subject open until someone shows me the
>results of well designed experiments aimed at properly identify the
>mechanism(s) involved.
That's nice of you, I hope you will let us know when your satisfied....but
don't be disappointed if we don't wait for you....hardly a satisfactory
answer to the beekeeper who has a problem today and looking for todays
solution. I would guess there will always be a difference between the way
someone with a problem looks at that problem and any solution and the
doctor looking for a proper scientific treatment, especially if one life
style is suffering or could suffer because of the problem.
>Unlike most commercial beekeepers, we drove during the day and stopped for
>a few hours at night.
I have been on the road with bees as many as 200 nights and days per year
and never have met a beekeeper, commercial or otherwise, that stops during
the day except in an emergency or a pit stop when moving bees. I have met
many at truck stops across the nation during the night when we stop for
fuel and food but believe me the norm is to drive during day light hours,
even some have been know to have two drivers while others have two log
books so they don't have to stop for sleep. But I am sure you are telling
the truth, just not sure you are right about the putting this label on all
or any commercial beekeepers as the many I know do not plan on stopping
during the day and all the problems that causes for their bees and the
public. We are not scientists but we do know the difference between right
and wrong and burden 100% of the responsibility for our own actions when it
comes to working with our bees or the actions of those who work for us.
> Why? Because the bees can't thermo-regulate
>properly when the truck stops during the day. They can fan, but need water
>and lots of air movement. At night, when the sun is no longer beating down
>on the boxes, they have a chance of cooling (don't need as much air flow) -
>if they can get water.
Interesting, but very old information...and one only need a small amount of
common sense and not a doctorate to figure this out I hope.
>One lesson that we learned very quickly - refueling stops during the day
>are when things can quickly escalate out of control. Pull in to a fuel
>station, stop, and the temperature begins to climb in less than 5 minutes
>(down right scarey). In our case, we added a small generator and fan to
>move air through the load (during these stops or any roadside breakdowns).
>Without the fan system - don't stop!
Proper every day normal pre bee movement planning would include amounts of
fuel, coffee, sodas, and junk food so day time stops are not required. This
is a no brainier for most beekeepers who move bees long distances. To add
this kind of equipment to bee trucks would reduce the number of hives that
could be carried and increase the cost per hive for every load moved. We
are looking for things to increase our productivity not increase costs.
Loss from breakdowns is very rare and any bee loss of bees is covered by
cargo insurance that is required before any trucker moves bees commercially
over the road. Beekeepers who move their own bees are assumeing this loss
risk by not having cargo insurance. Most hives are now value at over $120.
for cargo insurance coverage because so many are going to or from
pollination jobs.
>Typically, the western part of the trip is hot and dry and water is
>critical. As we near the east coast with its high humidity, we sometimes
>had the opposite problem - the confined bees could literally drown in their
>own condensation. In fact, after three years, the only bees lost in
>transit were from excess moisture -
For sure when large amounts of bees expire due to suffocation their appears
to be an excess of moisture. I have never tested it to see what it really
was, heck I never even tasted it. In the old day when hives were screened
top and bottom this moisture was thought to be nectar that splashed out and
drown the bees but in most cases I am sure this was not true but in some I
am also sure it was as I did taste it once and it was nectar. I can tell
you from experience and for a fact it matters not what the condition or
humidity of the air is as all bee suffocation have this excess moisture
appearance in common even in areas of little or no humidity such as the
highs of the Rocky mountains or the arid southwest.
>overnight move of only a couple of miles. So, when working under humid
>conditions, be sure to provide plenty of ventilation and keep that air
moving.
The rule beekeepers should remember is that cold bees can be revived but
seldom are overheated ones and even if they live don't have much
value...Cold bees will fall down in a package bee cage but this seems not
to harm them and they do not smother because of it and will get back up
when warmed up. When hot bees drop and smother each other and they are dead
and don't get up.
ttul, Andy-
Los Banos, California
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(w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK!
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