Angus Stokes wrote:
>
> On Thu, 20 Mar 1997, Angus Stokes wrote:
>
> >>. Here in the UK the problem arises from
> >> hybridisation of imported bees with native Apis mellifera
> >> mellifera ( Dark European bee).  Both the native and imported sub
> >> species may be gentle but the mongrels which result from random
> >> matings cause endless trouble.
>
> On Sat 22 Mar 1997 Ian Watson wrote in reply:
> >I beg to differ.
> >The Buckfast HYBRID is a wonderfull example of the direct opposite of your
> >premise.  They are resistant to tracheal mites, and VERY gentle, as I have
> >routinely worked them with no veil or gloves, wearing just short pants and
> >a T-shirt. They are worlds apart in gentleness from my Italian bees.
> >Brother Adam wasn't praticing "reckless acts of importation and
> >hybridization" when he made the Buckfast Bee. He was making vast
> >improvements.
> >Maybe I'm missing something here though...
>
> Yes, Brother Adam certainly did make what he regarded as
> improvements to his bees.  I didn't have him in mind when I wrote
> originally and related our experiences with aggressive mongrel bees ,
> but now you mention it.... my personal view is that the Brother Adam
> hybridisation activity and the resulting Buckfast 'magic' bee
> phenomenon is one the WORST things to happen to British beekeeping
> and native bees.  I am familiar with story,  (read the book, seen the
> video, visited Buckfastleigh), of Brother Adam and his lifelong
> activities in beekeeping.  He was a truly remarkable and devoted
> beekeeper and many of his devotees hold him and his type of mongrel
> bee in awe.
>
> There is no doubt, that Adam both imported foreign queen
> bees into his apiary and released the progeny from them into the
> environment to mate with his own bees and of course, whatever
> happened to be flying past.  This is only reckless if you view the
> random release of foreign species into the environment as
> undesirable.  It was within the law in the UK. . You still can
> import a queen bee so long as you don't release it, but it is lawful
> for the progeny to be released!  Think of this, next time you pass
> through customs into your own country try carrying a bunch of wild
> plants to see how they view the importation and potential release
> of foreign species. If you have laws in your country which prevent
> the importation of bees and their diseases then consider yourself
> fortunate.
>
> What a great pity Adam didn't develop the bees that existed in Devon
> instead of looking for the long shot or quick fix,  a mish mash of
> genes that formed a better bee than the local one he started with in
> the first place. He could have done the job in a fraction of a
> lifetime.
>
> What Adam he did really well, was to observe his bees and select
> which colonies he was keeping and decide which queens he culled.
> We all know it doesn't take lifetime of experience to do this.  Any
> novice beekeeper can make a start by culling say, one third of
> his/her queens every year and introducing queens from 'better'
> stocks, for example quiet non-aggressive bees.
>
> Buckfast strain - is it a legend, fact or just a (commercial) myth?
> There are so many beekeepers' myths surrounding the attributes of
> the legendary Buckfast hybrid that it is difficult to establish
> what it is supposed to be.  It seems that it can be all things to
> all beekeepers.  Can the so called 'strain' be uniquely identified
> by an entomologist using any recognised scientific techniques?  I
> doubt it, never seeing any evidence or documentation.   Having seen
> bees from the UK, Denmark and USA, all of which were labelled
> 'Buckfast' by their owners, none of them even superficially looked
> alike. Morphometric analyses of wing venation from these bees even
> showed a diversity of form between individual bees from the same
> colony --they were not a 'strain' but just  hybrids, (or should
> that be 'mongrels'.)
>
> Correct me if I am mistaken, but I don't think Buckfast Abbey,
> Devon, UK  have been selling queen bees for years? Can you make
> real 'champagne' in Australia or manufacture Rolex watches in
> Taiwan? - just joking!
>
> It seems that some amateurs who have a hive with stripy gentle bees
> may fervently call it a 'Buckfast' strain.  This labelling of local
> bees 'Buckfast', 'Italian', Native, or whatever doesn't make them
> better or worse than any other bee.  Any strain is not easily
> sustainable by an amateur with a few hives, even by instrumental
> insemination.  Pure line breeding is simply beyond the scope and
> resources of most people unless they happen to live at the head of
> a remote valley with no other beekeepers or wild bees within a
> least 10 miles.
>
> To return the original point of this discussion thread -  1ST
> GENERATION HYBRIDS often demonstrate heterosis or hybrid vigour
> which can make them successful collectors of honey whether they are
> aggressive or not.  It is the random chance matings of virgin
> NATIVE (UK) queens with a variety of drones of mongrel  origin
> that  often results aggressive colonies in my own apiaries. This
> also happens with second generation hybrids. Obviously commercial
> HYBRIDS, however they are labelled, when  bred specifically to
> eliminate aggressive behaviour would not be expected to be
> aggressive.
>
> Has anyone else noticed that bees aggressive towards humans  are
> often aggressive ROBBERS of other hives?  They then get the
> reputation for being good collectors of honey.
>
> What is good for an Italian climate is unlikely to be success in
> Canada.  Surely what we are all seeking to develop and maintain, is
> a bee that is best for our individual purposes, in our LOCAL
> environment. The bees' given name is then irrelevant.
>
> Here in the Derbyshire hills, U.K. the native bees are collecting
> pollen from crocus, celandine and hazel for their little patches of
> brood. No nectar around for a few weeks yet and the forecast is for
> rain!
>
> Regards,
> Angus Stokes
> http://www.angus.co.uk
>
>       (\ ANGUS (\ STOKES (\
>      {|||8-   {|||8-    {|||8-   (\
>       (/       (/        (/     {|||8-   (\
>                                  (/     {|||8-   (\
>        email : [log in to unmask]          (/     {|||8-     (\
>    telephone : +44 (0)1629 813 993               (/ (\    {|||8-
>          fax : +44 (0)1629 814 419                 {|||8-  (/
>          URL : http://www.angus.co.uk/              (/
 
Angus
 
I don't agree with your opinion of Br. Adam.  What you are advocating is that we try to revive a bee from the
past.  Brother Adam was trying to *improve* his bees.  If we have the technology and will to improve something
then I think that that is the way forward. We may make mistakes but this is how we learn. I don't think that
there are any "Native Bees" in England except the ones that have been bread to "look like" native black bees.
What sort of temperament these native bees had open to question.  Here in Scotland where you might expect
native bees to survive I don't think that there are any wild colonies and I doubt that any isolated colony
could survive without human help.  I accept that by importing bees we are taking risks but this world would be
a dull place otherwise.
My thanks to Brother Adam for brightening up my life!
 
Harry
Scotland