On Tue, 9 Jul 1996, Allen Dick wrote:
 
> > The general question of whether genetic background is more important
> > than rearing methods seems to me to be so broad as to be
> > unanswerable.  If it is reasonable to say that rearing methods have
> > a real effect on a queen's rate of reproduction (measured by
> > emerging, healthy worker bees at the right time of year), then
> > rearing methods should have a real effect on honey production, given
> > queens of similar genetic backgrounds.  Likewise, the queen's
> > genetic background should also have a real effect on honey
> > production, given queens raised under similar (and adequate)
> > methods.  Which one is more important than the other depends on
> > which one happens to be the limiting factor in a given situation.
>
> Thanks for the intelligent discussion of the topic.
>
> Another factor which comes in is the expected productive life of the
> queen.  Should she fail after introduction or some time during the
> year, production or even colony survival is at risk.
>
> Queens that are well raised definitely do last longer by far.  When
> we started requeening regularly with our own carefully raised  stock,
>  we noticed a big drop in colonies that went drone layer over
> winter -- as well as weak colonies in fall.  This of course results
> in larger production, and lower expense.
>
> The next question:  Seeing as a number of writers have emphasized
> genetics as if it cannot be assumed to be reasonably equal between
> sources, what are the chances of buying a genetically poor queen
> from a commercial queen breeder?
  Hello All, I have missed the last few days on the list and wished I was
on the start of this topic.
We do have many ways to get poor queens. The process of raising good
queens needs very good attention to the stores, quality of pollen , age
of bees to feed the larva , ventilation for the starter and healthy
bees.Plus a few more that will come up later.
 Lets look at the queen cells on the bar as for starters. Some queens have
a bunch of workers around her all the time and many more than some of the
other queens. Now thats genetics.So the queen with all of this attention
will get more care. Queen breeding good queens all the time is a big
job.If you have good stock to start with and keep selecting for the best
as breeders you will get into trouble at some point.What do we use to
select good queens to head up our hives.On the genetic side we will run
into problems with loosing some genes that are needed in conjunction with
other genes that may control pheromone production. Now we have a change
in behavior do to weaker pheromones or missing pheromones.Now comes the
real inside curve.Because of different inviornments that the bees will
work in, we have different phenotypes. Geneotype + enviornment=
phenotype. So we can have queens doing well down south and poorly up
north. This subject has had me reading and observing for the last 15
years at least.I have Bee Genetics and Breeding by Dr. Rinderer  1986
and Contemporary Queen Rearing by Dr. Dr Laidlaw 1985.I have Steve Tabers
book on breeding super Bees.
 My opinion is , beekeepers need to give the breeders feedback, both
positive and negative. We need more ongoing research on genetics. I think
we know less than we need to make a good conclusion to this debate.We
need breeders educated to what we know in 1996.If we want better queens
it takes both a very good gene pool to start with and a list of traits
that the beekeepers want and need.We have problems with supercedure and I
think that has both factors working on that problem. Poorly raised queens
will supercede  and  I would bet that genetics has a play in it also.
Some bees are hard to introduce into hives.More of a problem when they
are not laying , but I have seen laying queens get superceded in a week
or two.( and a bunch of them)
 This subject did bring plenty of people off of the fence.I would like to
see more breeders involved with this subject.We need no rock throwing ,
but it would be very good to hear there problems. We have had some
feedback, but we need more.The Buckfast project in Europe has been
amazing to me.700 people keeping the same kind of Bee with many different
traits.I think that we in the US can learn something from that type of
partnership.You don't do beekeeping because you have to, its different
reasons for different people.But we all like or love are bees and we do
get enjoyment out of them. I have to hand it to the big operators , it
takes guts and brains to make a living out of bees. If your a good
beekeeper, you have something to be very proud of. Mans knowlege is
limited and we have been studying these bees for a long time.We will be
asking questions right up to the end. Allen Dick , I want to thank you
for the fuel that made this topic a learning expierence.We could get very
technical and if you like that part read Dr. Rinderers book. I did and it
took me 3 years. If it has no Protons and electrons and Newton is not
involved , it comes slow to me.
 Best To Everyone
   Roy