I don't think there's any change that would be a "solution" other than some introspection by each and every member.  See Fig. 1, attached - we are no worse or better than any other group.

As to the exchange of posts that prompted this discussion, I was not clear on what Charlie was doing with both Probiotics and Antibiotics either.  But, I emailed him OFF-LIST to ask him what was up, and he explained more fully.  

There's perhaps a lesson there.  A "public" post can seem confrontational, when a private email with the SAME EXACT CONTENT is seen as friendly.  While I contend that Bee-L is so obscure as to be "essentially private", others disagree, and have concern over the reputational impact it might have.  But note well - the membership has hovered at 950-1000 for decades, so we could all fit in one smallish hall at any convention center.  

The essential problem of "moderation" remains.  Attempting to "enforce civility" consistently is impossible.  For example, I  might offer a turn of phrase that makes 60% of us laugh, but what of the one person who thinks that the comment is about them, and reacts badly?  How to make clear that everything is not about YOU, even if it might tangentially apply?  Should anyone have to self-censor, or is this a "personal problem" for the reader to address?  The actual solution to the "problem of moderation" is to be less quick to take offense, but that is something to learn, hence the suggestion of "introspection".  

Perspective is also needed - Bee-L is just one puddle adjacent to the tiny backwater pond that is "beekeeping".  We are a mere large handful among far less than a million beekeepers planet-wide.  The focus on the obscure can create fragile egos that are "damaged" over mere trivia. Our concerns are not just inconsequential in the larger frame, they seem very comical to many - I have been asked by many people who I respect why I would waste some of my "retirement" (I retired in 1993) keeping bees when I might do something "more important".

> totally free-wheeling discussion 
> leads to anarchy and BeeSource. 

BeeSource was bought by a syndicator of forums years ago. It had multiple moderators early on. The term "anarchy" does not apply, and is a very mild example of the basic problem we face - the less one's personal experience with something, the more simplified/cartoonish the depiction in one's head, and the more dismissive one is towards those with actual experience in that area.  (The German prefix "sonder-" applies here. Everyone else's life is as rich and complex as your own, and some of them finished the Times crossword puzzle in half the time you took to get 3/4ths through and set it aside.)

> [Bee-L] early on, was supported by academics 
> and scientists who departed rather quickly 
> when confronted by the anecdotal beekeepers 
> who knew everything and attacked science. 

They aren't ever coming back to ANY public forum.  

The institutions forced employees off all public forums due to "risk". What actually happened was that institutions the internet invasion by "the general public" as a serious risk to their institutions' credibility and funding. They did not want their researchers engaging directly with random citizens with a full permanent transcript made of the interactions.  So, researchers can still lecture to groups, and engage in lively Q&A, and write for the non-peer-reviewed enthusiasts' magazines, but they are not permitted to engage anyone "online", simply because there is no upside and a big downside. The term "flame war" was used back then.  I remember everyone adding disclaimers on their UseNet .sig files about how their personal views were not that of their employer.  Didn't work.  People posted at risk to their careers.  

A classic example of the "worst case" is this - https://stroustrup.com/blast.html  Bjarne got away with it, as he had been named an "AT&T Fellow" prior to posting his rant, and that "ultra-tenure" makes one immune to any critique/control.

The solution to this problem in physics is that nearly everyone posts their pre-prints to the very public https://arxiv.org , but we discuss them in various private forums with strict vetting of each member to exclude the press, the unwashed masses, and the pencil-necked paper-pushers who might fire one of the participants.  Messages are encrypted.  Logins demand 2-factor-authentication with YubiKey or an authentication app.  So, everyone can speak freely to their peers, without fear for their careers.  But that's not perfect, either.  




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