I apologize,  but I needed to type this out to get it out of my head!



I had hoped I was misunderstanding Pete,  and that he was trying to say the different traits,  were not actually related to the genetic history, and were in fact misnamed.   I might buy that although I don't care,  since common language has now defined them. If one would like to debate if the traits of Carni and Itilains are more of a sterotype than a genetics,  well that could be discussed.  To say there is no difference?  



So let me be sure I have this straight,  a 1930 researcher decided with some sort of experiment,  that there was no real difference,  so that’s where you hang your hat??  The addition of later papers showing that the GENETIC differences are muted is a twist of the data presented,  and do not support the theory that there are no behavior variations based on genetics,  only that time and interbreeding have muted the measurable genetic changes. 

Were there any merit to it then is would have gained traction. Obviously it has not.  Every reputable bee book, researcher and serious beekeeper in the last 80 years has worked with and followed what we "call" the genetic lines and differences.   Crosses aside as we all agree there has been a lot of that,   The separate functions of Carni and 
IT  is a strong difference in how hives behave on a annual basis.  To say claim otherwise is at best very odd ( I admit I having trouble finding acceptable words for it)  ANY sort of search for the differences in breeds will bring up 1000's of very reputable sources.

It is possible that smaller operators may not see the variations,  or that some people may not realize what they are seeing is as much the type of bees as it is the climate.  IE if you never had both side by side you may not see it,  or you may blame other factors.

Luckily larger scale operators have figured it out.  There are traits that separate them,  To Dicks point I may have an advantage I buy queens in larger batches,  and run them side by side in hives that were started at the same time.  For example:   This spring I got 70 queens from a FL bee(who reads here also) same week I got 100 in from a GA  supplier and 250 in from a CA supplier.   All were made into single box splits in a 10 day window. Those FL queens were actually installed first.   Long story short 4 weeks later doing queen checks I was very disappointed in those queens,  hives had barely started to brood.  In fact I pinched a few before I realized it was a trait,  compared to the CA queens these girls were complete duds.   Fast forward another month  and those FL girls were 9 frames of brood,  and the CA girls were still holding steady at the 5-6 frames zone.   Guess the "advertised" genetics??  

Example after example of that,  I have run a lot of both trying to figure out what works best in which situation   We have finally dialed in some tricks to work with both,  but bottom line if you run double deeps Carnis will be horrible honey hives,  and if your not watching close,  IT queens winter poorly here. They go into fall to big  and starve.


Pondering it,  it actually makes sense.  If your to ponder a moderate climate like the Mediterranean summer dearth's would put smaller weaker hives at a decided disadvantage as the larger  style thieving  bums we know as Italians  would move in the mafia and rob out the hives,  those same large  families put in northern climates would have trouble in the winter as then need to eat everything.  Starving quickly if not managing the stores well.

Here in my region I would note that Carnis will fill a single and 2/3 supers in most years IT will fill double deeps and 4 or 5 supers.   A lot more bees in mid to late summer.  We have to split them again, or feed the heck out of them.

Carnis seem to have lowered frame counts in Jan than IT I would say 25% less bees as a trend.  I would also add after 3 seasons of trying  that Carnis just won't restart brood on fake pollen sub,  IT queens seem to take off at the first feeding.

This is season after season comparison,  not just a 3 month trial.  Born out by 1000's of breeders and bee people, some of the finest and most skilled in the trade,  not the odd observation of.......

In this country we have a similar comparison.  Horses.  The vast majority of those out there have no knowledge of the differences between  breeds.  To them it’s a horse.  But to many  the differences between an Arabian, a thoroughbred, and a quarter horse are life changers.  You will never see a quarter horse in the derby,  nor  an Arabian pack horse.


Again,  while I would agree color is not the "only trait"  it’s a strong indicator,  as mentioned I have yet to see a real pissy yellow hive,  and whn we run into smaller hives with smaller tight brood we start looking for a dark queen ( Dark queens are  harder to find)    I also note as a trend I don’t see very many "huge" dark queens.

For those of who have "exceptions" such as IT bees that do great in the far north,  or that monster dark queen,  first of there are obviously exceptions, And second are you sure the source of your hives genetics?    These guidelines are just that,  there are  Romans with tiny noses,  so it’s a general concept,  not a hard and fast guide.

I am quite sure that Old Sol apiaries NWC carni line  is completely different than Frank Pendels cordovans,  and that  Valerie Strachan Carni line acts completely different than Wootens golden Italians.   I find it super hard to even fathom you would say that Tom Glenn couldn’t tell the difference in his breeds, as they were so muted,  and very disappointed that you don’t recognize the work of so many top breeders in separating these traits and working long hours to perfect them.  I would have hoped  that one making that statement would have a lot more evidence than a 80 year old paper and a hypothesis.


Personally after many seasons of work with some of the best honey producers,  I am pretty sure the concept of excluders as honey excluders can be attributed to not understanding the difference in these breeds and how they manage hive size.  But that’s just my thought.  I tried real hard to leave my personal observations and experiences out of it,  and ponder what your saying,  but sorry flat earth concept aside,  the statement that "we are now one" has no real merit. A better observation, may be  "I don’t see the difference" and leave it at that.

I am no wizard at genetics,  or even the terminology, I make no claims to that.  but I know with certainty that there are differences in stock types.


Charles

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