> Sorry, these aren't the documents we are looking for.<
> Does the refered document stand up as well as using michael bush, solomon parker and kert webster?

All I saw was a reference to "bee scource" which like going to a bar fight to learn about manners. The names you mention mean nothing to me, these are unpublished fountains of dubious wisdom. You have stumbled onto Bee-L. Many of us have 40-50 years of actual beekeeping experience. 

This is not about whose mind is made up, it is about getting useful information that we can use to become better beekeepers. When some novice starts telling people they don't know what they are doing, expect to see some pushback. For every one great new idea there are about 1000 bad new ideas. 


Glen, and......


I took a few days to process a reply for the reference to Michael Bush, Solomon and Kirk Webster, as well as the reference to some on BS such as Square peg.    Frankly the reference disturbed me greatly,  but I was at a loss for words on how to explain it.

This is not BS,  we don’t debate which frame to move where, or have 54 pages o flow hives.   This site is much more than that.  All the people here are well educated and well thought out.  While we question and debate,  its done with respect and complete thoughts. For an outsider some things look like personal attacks,  but are in fact far from it.  They are open discussion and debate on topics we disagree with.  It takes a very large mental leap to have the courage and to take the time to engage in these debates and discussions.   It is a privilege to participate and to observe, one I try to take seriously.

The mention of those names I take as an insult to the people here.  All of them are fine people,  but they don’t hold a candle to the members here.  I have been to the yards of 2 of those mentioned,  and their bees were "also rans" at best.  One of them mentions in public top entrances being more efficient,  yes,  because hes too lazy to mow,  and have bees in some of the ugliest hives ever!

But here is the real crux  that I finally figured out how to phrase,  the above mentioned types are using a completely nonsensical measurement of success.  

HIVES THAT LIVED OVER WINTER

There is the real problem.  For anyone who is serious about beekeeping  winter loses is not a real metric of success.  While those like BIP and others continue to use it as the ruler,  its really not, in fact as I ponder it it’s a lousy metric in which to gauge success.  While we all want low losses,  using that as a metric is simply not accurate.

Take Randy for example, Randys model is to split everything in spring,  sell a lot of bees and then make almonds with a portion of the splits.   His metric of success every year is how many make grade for almonds.   Anything less than enough to pay the bills is a failure, and he works many many hours to make sure that doesn’t happen.   Randy has his own yard stick of success,  based on healthy bees and profits to continue. The amount of personal time money and effort to make that happen is huge.  Its not 4 hours a day on BS bragging on his 12 hives.

Pete's many years work towards the business is huge,  he too has some very large guidelines for what successful is,  and its much more than how many lived thru the winter I don’t have details on Petes,  but I am quite sure he values much more than a shabby box in the weeds that still has some comings and goings.

My yard,  I scour the pros,  I visit and spend time  benchmarking hives and operations.  My goal is 2 splits, 125lbs of honey and almonds ( as well as some melons) for pollination.  My target is a hive that I can shake out 6lbs bees with little effect. Anything less for me is failure to meet my goals.

All of these are set to real standards.  Pollination hives have recognized standards (frame counts) 8 frame min in Feb for almonds,  honey producers have benchmarks based on the states they are in,  bee producers have timeframes to sell a lot of bees,  queen producers have time windows and repeat customers  that are very measurable metrics

It took me 3 years to get 5 queens from one of those guys,  to seriously include them in what I view as successful beekeepers was a bit disturbing,  that’s my issue. I will work on it.

In the mean time  the members here do look at the work of these TF types,  and pay close attention, many of us have researched and tried all the things,  such as small cell and many other shall we say "experimental" things,  and despite ET's opinion some are  "closed minded"  (hes completely wrong) we will continue to watch what they do, try some thoughts, and should they have some real success, we will support them completely.



In the mean time,  we have paid the dues,  bought the queens,  tried the experiments, and are a bit jaded or cautious in the claims.  If your still needing a role model,  there is a guy I know who stacks his hives 12 feet tall in the hopes of honey, and claims 500 lbs a hive as long as you use the right brand of step ladder and never let your hives see sugar.....  he probably needs an apprentice!

Bottom line.   The successful beekeepers here use a much bigger metric than winter losses.  

In the mean time I did a 5 k in a little under 3 hours last month,  guess that makes me a runner!

Charles

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