Nov. 22, 2010
Skip,
(giggle) At a fancy schmanzy restaurant last night, I asked my spouse to
turn over the huge platter he was dining from so I could see the mark. He
looked at the gloppy remains of his dinner on it, pushed it over to me and
said "go right ahead." (Just another made in China) (No concentric lines,
either; this thing was oval; haven't got any oval items handy at this
second - see below.)
Back to concentric lines:
So, I've got this student cataloging my transferwares. A quick look at the
undersides of the (round) plates on that table - about 8 teetering piles -
shows these concentric lines inside the footrings of 3 vessels:
- U & C (Sarreguemines) "Royat" pattern 1850-1870
- New Wharf Pottery Co "Trent" pattern ca. 1891
- Crown Ducal "Colonial Times" pattern 1925+
This isn't meant to be any more than a little date span for you who
understand manufacturing better than I do.
I want to add that I have noticed that there are different spacing patterns
of these concentric lines on matching vessels of the same pattern. In other
words, 8" plates may have a different concentric line pattern than 9"
plates...
As I said this came up because both Carol and I have matched plates by
lining up these lines on the sherds from our assemblages. We got to
wondering...
Thanks all,
Susan
(Oh Carol, see what you've done!)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Leslie C. "Skip" Stewart-Abernathy" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 9:30 AM
Subject: Re: lines UNDER plates
> This is either an amazingly neglected topic or it is entirely
> irrelevant to human existence, but at any event I am fascinated. If
> it weren't for the account of an actual potter passed down through
> his grandson I would say the subject is irrelevant and as subject to
> "just so" and mythic explanations as the raised dots on the bottom of
> snuff bottles. However, this is now similar to looking at the
> technical knowledge known only to guild members. And it's more
> relevant to me than many of the latest developments in pyramid studies.
>
> The use of concentric lines/ridges to identify single potters raises
> (oops) many questions. Were the plates press molded or slip cast? Did
> each potter (or machine operator?) have their own bottom mold or mold
> half custom prepared and/or assigned? Did this code stay the same
> regardless of the overall plate form/dimensions/changes through
> time or did the code shift with new styles or production runs? Does
> this ring code indicate an entire line of work back in the mold shop
> with associated records and interchangeable tools to make the
> mold/whatever unique? And was this code unique to the "National
> Brotherhood of Operative Potters" as included on the Cronin plate I
> have (only at hand as a photo on my laptop)?
>
> My type collection is at the office and I am at home, but a quick
> check of our home dishes, not in sets for the most part I might add,
> have no rings. The revived Homer Laughlin Fiesta plates do (9" has 6
> evenly spaced, 10 1/2" has 6 but space between innermost 2 is less
> than between others). These plates are decorated with concentric
> rings on the marley and in the well. The two bowl forms we have show
> no rings but the foot ring. Are the bottom rings still a code, or
> "just" decoration?
>
> And how come nobody's noticed the rings before? Or does George
> Miller have a paper we don't know about? At minimum this gives me
> something else to look at on the bottoms of vessels at the restaurant.
>
> At 03:15 PM 11/19/2010, you wrote:
>>Susan,
>> We actually have a few teetering piles of Cronin around the house.
>>My grandfathers mark were 2 concentric lines approximately 2 inches
>>from center of plate with a third concentric line close to the
>>footring. Each potter that actually made pieces had a specific
>>mark, unique to them. It was partially used for Quality Control and
>>for the amount of pieces made by a specific potter for
>>quota's. Examples: Plates that were not holding up well, blemishes,
>>or any below standard qualities could then be traced to the specific
>>potter/maker and then be addressed. A certain amount of items had
>>to be finished by deadlines and they could count the quantity of
>>dishes from a specific line in the factory by the marks ensuring
>>each potter was 'keeping up' with production needs.
>> So, the lines have more to deal with the actual worker/potter
>> than a designer or a specific pattern. (At Cronin China)
>>I hope this helps clear things up.
>> If you have any other questions, I will be glad to answer them.
>>Douglas
>>
>>
>>--- On Fri, 11/19/10, Susan Walter <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>From: Susan Walter <[log in to unmask]>
>>Subject: Re: lines UNDER plates
>>To: [log in to unmask]
>>Date: Friday, November 19, 2010, 12:34 PM
>>
>>
>>Hi D & L,
>>
>>Wow, how cool that you can find your Grandfather's work like
>>that! (I'm afraid if I had that in my family history I'd "need" to
>>buy every piece! I can imagine the teetering piles...)
>>
>>I don't have a Cronin China Co. piece in my reference collection of
>>complete wares.
>>
>>But, for instance, I have beside me a piece of Haviland's Ranson pattern.
>>The designer of this pattern, Ranson, for Haviland was possibly Paul
>>Ranson. (Travis, Nora, 2000, Evolution of Haviland China Design,
>>Schiffer, Atglen Pennsylvania: 143).
>>I want you to pretend Haviland = Cronin China Co., and Paul Ranson =
>>your Grandfather
>>
>>Describing the bottom roughly:
>>starting at the very center -
>>- beginning near 3/16" from the middle are 2 concentric lines (@
>>3/16" apart) (lightest in prominence)
>>- then a space of about 1 3/4"
>>- then another set of concentric lines (@3/16" apart) (medium prominence)
>>- next the footring about 3/4" from that
>>- following at about another 3/4" is a single concentric line (this
>>line is heaviest) in prominence
>>
>>So D & L, are you suggesting that - to the [Haviland Company/Cronin]
>>- these concentric lines meant [Paul Ranson/your Grandpa]? Or that
>>they meant part of the patented Ranson shape? Or both?
>>
>>So, would other Paul Ranson designed shapes have the same series of
>>concentric lines?
>>
>>S.
>>
>>Disclaimer to everyone following this: I understand that what
>>Cronin China Co. did is not necessairily what Haviland did!
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "D & L" <[log in to unmask]>
>>To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 9:03 AM
>>Subject: Re: lines UNDER plates
>>
>>
>>My Grandfather worked for many years at the Cronin China factory in
>>Ohio. He had told me the lines on the plates were a 'Makers Mark' in
>>a way. Each potter placed a certain amount of circles, placed in a
>>specific area on the plate bottom. This told which potter actually
>>had made the item. I can still find plates bearing my Grandfathers
>>marks at antique stores, etc. It amazes me to be able to hold an
>>item that had actually passed through his hands.
>>
>>
>>--- On Thu, 11/18/10, Susan Walter <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>From: Susan Walter <[log in to unmask]>
>>Subject: lines UNDER plates
>>To: [log in to unmask]
>>Date: Thursday, November 18, 2010, 11:03 AM
>>
>>
>>Nov. 18, 2010
>>
>>Hi All (Hi Carol!),
>>
>>A friend and I were discussing ceramics, and she reminded me of something.
>>
>>Often on the undersides of dishes are concentric lines that were
>>molded into the vessel. They are usually inside the footring, but
>>also occur outside of them.
>>
>>For us, they help to match up fragments of different vessels.
>>
>>But, she was asking, was there any specific original purpose to these?
>>
>>S. Walter
>>
>>
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