>The definition of treatment free becomes somewhat evident...

Unless one goes by the dictionary.

From http://www.thefreedictionary.com/treatment

treat·ment (trtmnt)
n.
1.
a. The act, manner, or method of handling or dealing with someone or something: "the right to equal treatment in the criminal and juvenile justice system" (Susan C. Ross).
b. Informal The usual methods of dealing with a given situation: gave the opposing team the treatment.
2.
a. Administration or application of remedies to a patient or for a disease or injury; medicinal or surgical management; therapy.
b. The substance or remedy so applied...

The word, "intervention" is listed as a synonym.
 
>For our own purposes (for our business), treatment free includes no feeding (except of honey).

See above.

>It _is_ confusing when people use the same terms for different things (or to be fair, to have different interpretations of the same term). 

Fairness should extend also to considering the difference between obviously questionable practices such as using highly toxic chemicals in an untested and unapproved manner and those which are routine like splitting, requeening, moving, feeding starving bees food which is widely used for human consumption, etc..

>I don?t really know what to do about it except to continue to use the definition I?ve been using, as it seems reasonable to me, and I seem to be the one using it most often (I don?t think that there is any inherent right to define a term, but given that we run a treatment free beekeeping conference, make our livings selling treatment free honey, and have written the only beekeeping book I?m aware of that is specifically about treatment free beekeeping, I think if we are using a reasonable definition it?s as legitimate as anything).

>Artificial distinctions, denigration of mainstream practices and hair-splitting are American marketing traditions.  What can I say?

>On Bee-l recently, I found it very confusing.  When Allen shared with us the loss of his hives last month, he _seemed_ to be saying that he had not treated his bees:

I think I made it very clear that I did a number of treatments, some of which you would dissapprove, and some which you would find acceptable under your dogma.

>1.  I had participated in those discussions with Allen on BS, and it did not really seem like he was ?drinking any Kool Aid?..it was similar to the discussions we have here on small cell and treatment free (some of them were quite good discussions, but I certainly didn?t get the impression that he was changing his management practices as a result of them).

What I have learned over the years is that in discussions between reasonable people, both parties, at least those who listen, tend to be affected by the other parties.  In this case, I was somewhat rocked to sleep by the assertions of others and actually was giving some credibility to the idea that at least a portion of the hives will survive if the right stock is involved.   I was also keeping company with many who felt that monitoring was a waste of time, and I think that I was influenced.

I hate sampling bees with alcohol and had intended to use mite drops, but found I had snookered myself by changing to the EPS hives, running more than two brood chambers, and vastly increasing my hive count. I could not get the screens under.

>?I?m virtually certain no matter what anyone on BS told Allen to do or not to do, nurse a sick hive that an experienced beekeeper [Allen] knew was going to cause a problem and leave it in the middle of his one yard was not among the advice he received.

Actually, I did not know that.  I had heard things both ways in that regard and have had good experience in the past with combining weak colonies and boosting.  Moreover, although I suspect that this may have been the initial cause, it is just a guess, and the speculation comes after the fact.  At the time, it just seemed to be slow and was on the end, not the middle, right where the wind comes around the building.  By the time I noticed other nearby hives showing similar behaviour, it was too late.  The whole yard went down fast -- much faster than that hive.

>?.So I?m left wondering, what does ?spent some time discussing ?no treatment? and drank their Kool Aid? mean?  It certainly doesn?t mean, ?I didn?t treat my bees? by any definition. 

I think that I have made all this clear in detail in many previous posts and that you are late to this party, but deserve at least this much.

In short, I was affected by that line of thinking and as a result was not as vigilant as I would otherwise have been.

For those who have created an elaborate catechism around the management of bees, no explanation will ever suffice, but for those who understand that there are shades of grey and who understand that there are various degrees of managing, from total leave-alone to intensive management with use of many chemicals and manipulations, what I am saying makes sense and is a warning.

As I have said before, I'd love to see an objective study of what is really going on since few who keep bees in any significant number for a living are willing to knowingly take the risks I did.  My experience illustrates why.

> I?m not trying to beat up on Allen, but this is a recent case that happened here on Bee-L, and I still don?t understand what was being said, and how ?treatment free? (or ?no treatment?) was used.
>Is it as simple as no mite treatment was used?

It is a simple as I did not notice the mite levels getting high after spending time with those who don't think it matters.  I should have known better, but somehow expected that there would be some survivors like there were the last time I did this, especially since I had obtained a number of supposedly robust strains which could thrive without much intervention (treatment?)

There is a joker in the deck and you will know when you see him up close and personal.  I'm not wishing that on you, but it is coming.  Until then, enjoy your good luck.

>In any case, if you don?t treat, your bees might die.  If you do treat, your bees might die.  If you treat your bees when you see a problem, you can be a treatment free beekeeper until your next problem arises.  If you want to keep bees without treatments, you have to (at some point) stop treating.  Only those that actually do this will ever be treatment free beekeepers

Or they will be bee-free ex-beekeepers.  When you find that ALL your bees have died and they will some day, you'll see things differently.  Until then you will be sustained by your faith and convince many others.

> (as there will always be problems that will make you _want_ to use a treatment to fix things)  I know this is not everyone?s goal (nor do I think, for the sake of the humans on our planet, that it should be?at least not in the short term, not in the status quo).

This is a very convincing argument, but one which does not work on many who depend on bees for a living.

>Now, with regard to the small cell studies... There is no mention of even claims of anyone having success. 

There certainly were early on in her verbal reports and it looked as if she was going to show a positive effect.  Her eventual conclusions were surprising in that regard, but if she was biased going in, it looked to be on the pro-SC side.

> But these beekeepers don?t control research funding, and they don?t have any say in what research gets done, or how it gets done.  It is the responsibility of the researchers to make sure the experimental model is meaningful.  No beekeeper has claimed success with small cell using management practices that are anything close to how the bees in these studies are run.  The researchers may be testing ?small cell?, but they are not testing ?claims of small cell?.

I have discussed this with Dee a decade back and she was quite adamant that controlled studies were not possible.  I have witnesses.

>It is not true that ?small cell beekeepers? haven?t offered critique ..

It is true, but why have they not been able to design a study that they would not criticize?  Whining about those who have tried to prove their contentions is easy.

How hard is it to put up the design and the money and prove the point -- if indeed it can be proven?

>I was looking forward to reading Tom Seeley?s ...  I had a brief discussion with Tom about the study (very brief), but what he told me is that he assumed that if small cell had an impact, he would see it within 5 months (I?m not sure I believe that), and that the standard comb used in the study was wax, and the small cell was HoneySuperCell. 

I believe that Randy had positive results with that product.

>But, in the end?.I don?t know if small cell is helpful... I?m all for keeping bees on any size comb you want?whatever works for you.

Agreed.

> I do wish the research community would do a better job with this one, it would be interesting to know how the metabolic, aerodynamic, and other differences  translate into social (and perhaps social immune system) behavior.

Dee has certainly put forward some interesting ideas in this regard.  Maybe some of the immense time and effort that has gone into proselytizing should be directed instead into designing and financing some studies which actually prove these contentions.  In the end, if there is anything to it, this would be far more efficient than arguing.

I see you have found your capitals and periods, but are you using some sort of treatment-free text editor that only looks normal to those with the right attitude?

I appreciate your thoughts.  Thanks.

(I sorta dashed this off, seeing as we had just about wound up this topic (to the immense gratitude of some), and am also suddenly finding myself hugely busy with work coming at me from all sides, just as I prepare to head east. I am also behind in my correspondence so, hopefully this answers all questions as well as they can be answered.)

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