Hey David,

>I don't know about Missouri

Not many do we are the "show me" state and not to be confused with:

 > the land of Oz ,

Ye be speaking about those pilgrims from Kansas I think.


>but here around me and the group of high roller pollinators I know 30 to 50
>percent loss is not uncommon.

Kind of like taxes. We had a revolution from England when our taxes were
thirty percent. Now we seem content when over half our income goes to taxes.
30-50% losses are now getting to be the norm and beekeepers seem OK with
those losses. Next year maybe 50-75% will be the norm?

In Canada Medhat and others decided winter loss was unsustainable and I
believe he posted winter loss last winter at less than 10% and also says no
CCD in Canada. Amazing how a border can prevent CCD from entering Canada.


>..Even the manager of the Dadant branch made a comment to me recently about
>if folks tell you this way low number about losses I'd take it with a grain
>of salt, cause everyone around here has had a rough time.

Well after having kept bees in Florida and the Midwest I can say if you are
seeing 30-50% losses in Florida you don't want to try and winter bees in
Missouri or Canada or you might lose all your bees.

Perhaps a problem beyond your control( pesticides or west Nile spraying as
examples) ?)  is killing bees in your area and I am not talking about virus
as *I believe* if you control varroa your virus issues will go away . Which
is exactly what we were told when we consulted Brenda Ball in the U.K. years
ago. There is no cure for virus issues. You can treat bacterial issues
involved with a virus problem but antibiotics do not work with virus and
neither does vitamin C!

I am still waiting for Dave to show me some research showing vitamin C is
poison to virus (using Dave's own words from his post).

<Granted we all have things we slack on from time to time but myself and a
lot of my friends are going above and beyond feeding, putting on protein
patties ,and every other thing you can do and still have loss.

Well lets discuss some of your methods? This list is read the worldwide and
perhaps we can help?


>I for one would consider anything that would,or might could help lower my
>loss percentage and not bee :) detrimental to the bees.

Vitamin C?

>I know you mean well but it almost seems like your saying he's been
>practicing  ,ppb ( piss poor beekeeping).

I feel feeding bees vitamin C (VC) is a bit strange and wonder why Dave made 
the
decision to feed mass quantities of VC to his bees. Research he read about?
Health and PH are related and experimenting with acid levels might be a
point of interest and a little VC might be ok but huge amounts on all his
hives seems a bit odd. Dave?

>With CCD some problems can't easily be dismissed by just thinking there are
>steps missed by the beekeeper could've or should've done

I asked before *if* you were seeing the exact symptoms described by the CCD
working group but you never replied. To me CCD is a myth and only a word now
used *today*to describe a dead hive.

I see beekeepers with dead hives when nosema ceranae levels are approaching
10 million per bee and varroa control is lax.    CCD?

>, if it was that easy, you could be a consulting guru for us by now.

I have consulted in Florida but its hard to give an opinion when most
beekeepers are not listening. I learned a heck of a lot more by listening
than I ever did talking. I always enjoy my yearly talks with H.Bell ( 
Florida) . We
can talk bees for days at a time. I listen to what he says and he listens to
my opinions and hypothesis. Between his experience running thousands of
hives and my constant reading ( larger bee library than any other beekeeper
i have ever met) , first hand experience in keeping bees in many states and
*perhaps* the most prolific poster through the years on BEE-L (except maybe
Allen Dick).we can work through most beekeeping problems including CCD.

I still say "Occam's Razor' fits most problems.

>I know what you mean, but it's a complex problem of group of problems

True and I always look at the simplest solution which is too eliminate each
problem you FIND in your bees  until you run out of issues you see which
*could* cause the problem.

Number ONE is varroa control. Get those blood
suckers out of the hive and most virus issues will go away.

Number two today is eliminate nosema ceranae counts down to a reasonable
level.

>, and know clear cures offered as of yet.( hopefully Jerry will help us
>out )

I heard a story about a beekeeper in the floods of Tennessee awhile back.
The water flooded his house and he stood in knee deep water and a boat came
by and said to him to get in the water is rising. The beekeeper replied" God
would save him"

The beekeeper climbed up on the roof as the water rose and another boat came
by and asked the beekeeper to get in. The beekeeper replied " God would save
him".

The water rose up to the beekeepers neck and a helicopter from the Core of
Engineers came by and tried to rescue the beekeeper but the beekeeper
replied "God will save me"

Well the beekeeper drowned and went to heaven. Upon arrival the beekeeper
rushed up to God to exclaim "what happened why did you not save me?"

God replied he had sent two boats and a helicopter to save the beekeeper.

bob

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