Hello Jerry & All,

Jerry said;
> I'm not comfortable with allowing our work to be quoted and re-printed
> without knowing how the information is going to be used.

Michael simply took your survey results ( CHART & sources
 given on page 260).

and

checked the section 18 permits for the various states / years.

I did the same thing in 2007 and found a link (just as Michael did)
coincidence?
Maybe or maybe not.

In 2008 I tried to get a discussion started on BEE-L about what I saw but
was quickly shouted down ( in archives ).

I also stated if you look at Canada hive loss and neonicotinoid use the same
pattern stands out. I tried to point out to researchers the pattern but to
no avail.

Turning back the clock to the time period:
Back when hives were crashing across the U.S. ( started almost 2 years
before Jerry named CCD )  we suspected something unusual was happening in
our bees. I spent many days in various areas  trying to figure what the
problem was. Our consensus was a virus. We suspected our varroa controls
were failing and virus (PMS like) were causing problems. Still even SHb
would not invade deadouts.Also our symptoms did not exactly fit the known
virus symptoms.
Hives crashed to fast for us to believe a pathogen was the problem.
We basically were stumped

* Some of the losses I believe now were caused by nosema ceranae but our
USDA/ARS dropped the ball and did no testing for  nosema ceranae in the U.S.
despite widespread losses in Spain directly blamed on on Nosema ceranae.
Sure we did spore counts and testing but the new nosema left almost no
spotting on comb and the symptoms appeared during the summer which we had
never seen with nosema apis before. KBV was turned up and beeks suspected a
problem but if you control varroa then KBV is *usually* a non issue we were
told.

2 years later:
Then CCD came along and the U.S. beekeeping world saw what we had saw. We
thought the best researcher beekeeping minds would quickly solve the issue
which stumped us. Not so and the CCD team spent a great deal of time looking
at the same things we had. Going down the same dead end roads. We knew
trying to say those roads led us to a dead end was a waste of time but also
we felt researchers needed to take a fresh look. If you think back Jerry you
will remember my silence and seemed lack of interest in your survey. Quite
the opposite was true but sharing what we knew would not help you as the CCD
team in my opinion was not interested in the beekeeper hypothesis and we
were actually left out of many meetings. We had to rely on the many leaks
coming from the CCD working group for updates on what was happening.

late 2007:
Then I did as Michael did and looked at the states which had the most
declared cases of CCD and then looked at the section 18's issued and like
Michael I saw a  pattern.

What is my opinion as to why things changed in 2008?

It is my opinion and only a opinion/hypothesis but I believe the maker of
Imidacloprid saw the same pattern several of us did and adjusted the
formula. Although only a hypothesis (and certainly I am unable without the
makers help to substantiate )would explain why we are now seeing healthy
bees in those areas.

The chemical background people I have consulted all agree that my hypothesis
as sound. Those people said when a chemical is sold which is supposed to
kill say 18 different insects the formula strength is set to kill the
hardest insect listed even though some may be controlled with a less potent
dose.

I have NEVER said CCD is caused by the neonicotinoids. What I have said is I
believe the neonicotinoids can kill bees if not used with prudence.

To my knowledge CCD has no single cause however pesticides has been listed
as one of four possible causes.  All of the four possible causes listed by
the CCD working group need further research.

Consider this hypothesis:
The chemical company through its own research sees a problem with its
product so what would be its best solution:

My hypothesis:
Quietly correct the formula.

I doubt we will ever know what caused the last bee kill but commercial beeks
look forward and not at the past. I will be interested to see if problems
occur in orange in Florida this year. If those producing orange honey get a
decent crop and the bees come out in good condition then one has to wonder
what changed.

Sorry for the long post and sure others have their own hypothesis of what
caused the last bee kill. The floor is all yours!

bob

*******************************************************
* Search the BEE-L archives at:                       *
* http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l *
*******************************************************