>>That is true.  How are we to know what you are asking, though?

Right.  In the list, I'd include the producers' reported resistance even if it's just from a phone interview.  Some will not report a specific degree of resistance I am sure.

It would be great if some university program, or *someone*, undertook evaluating 100 queens from each major producer using local beekeepers' hives.  It might become someone's master's degree study.

In Germany, they have an effective national program for evaluating and propagating desirable traits in their queens.  It's regretable the US does not have something similar. 

>>What does that mean?  Zero on all?  Zero on some?  Zero for how long?  I hear lots of things, but believe very little.

That's right but you have to start with a baseline in order to monitor progress.  In your listing, I'd have a section for treatment types used and their frequency if the producers are willing to be open.  One can then see for oneself if one can replicate their claims in one's own setting.

>>What about production, wintering, swarming, gentleness?  Is survival the only thing we seek?

They use all of the above trait in Germany for their eval.  [We should to.]  In Germany, for instance, they have achieved a very significant improvement in their bees' gentleness for suburban beekeeping.  

>>Oversimplification and comparison of incomparables has marred this 
discussion from the start.  More than a few liars and fuzzy thinkers in the mix has not helped.

No argument here.  Independent replication of claims would clear up a lot of misconceptions.  I used to order queens based on the claims of the producers only to be disillusioned.  Now I raise my own.

>>I read an article by a wise old farmer in a farm paper once.  He said, given a choice between a number of options including extremes, pick the one in the middle every time.  You seldom go wrong that way.  Makes sense to me.

Is middle of the road in queens optimum now?  I kind of doubt it.

>>Bees that are resistant in one locality or circumstance may not be in another.  Let's not be extreme.

There is no replacing local verification of results, for one.  Breeding local queens is even better.

>>I'm not looking for perfection.  I'm looking for those moving in the right direction.

I've read a few breeding protocols and they made good sense to me so I think the direction is right.  I would like to see some independent verification of the results and claims.  Lacking such, I am willing to listen to beekeepers who have tried a statistically significant number of queens from any given source.

Waldemar

PS.  If there are breeders/producers who, indeed, have not used treatments for, say, 5 years, they should be identified.  Beekeeping clubs and organizations could then make recommendations to their members to use the genetics from 2 or 3 sources.  If the matching is good, the local bee population would show a significant rise in resistance, I think.  The next step would be to implement a club-wide queen breeding program to develop the resistance further along local lines.

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