And by extension, former President Richard Nixon used the sign to taunt the
public in his declaration that he was not a crook.
Ron May
Legacy 106, Inc.
In a message dated 10/22/2008 2:20:15 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
Apologies Jenni, I got the story wrong., but it does originate from the
Battle of Agincourt [1415] during the 100 years war
Before the Battle of Agincourt the French had threatened to cut off the bow
pulling fingers of any English Longbowmen they captured after they had won
the battle.
But of course they lost the battle and the two fingered V sign was used by
the English Longbowmen to taunt the French that their fingers were still
intact.
Historian Juliet Barker quotes Jean Le Fevre (who fought on the English
side at Agincourt) as saying that Henry V included a reference to the French
cutting off longbowmen's fingers in his pre-battle speech. If this is
correct it confirms that the story was around at the time of Agincourt,
although it doesn't necessarily mean that the French practised it, just that
Henry found it useful for propaganda, and it does not show that the
'two-fingers salute' is derived from the hypothetical behaviour of English
archers at that battle.
Suzanne
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stuart & Suzie" <[log in to unmask]>
To: "HISTORICAL ARCHAEOLOGY" <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2008 9:52 PM
Subject: Re: question re "happy face" pins
> Jennifer, the story about the longbows and finger amputations is very
> true, but was the French who cut off English bowmens fingers.
> This all came about after the Battle of Agincourt where the massively
> outnumbered English army defeated the French mainly due to the English
> Longbowmen. Such was the embarrasment to the French they did in later
> battles cut off one of the fingers of any captured English Bowmen. This
> was so they could no longer fight against the French using their Longbows.
> The V sign was definately a 2 finger gesture, but Im unsure as to which
> army. Was it the French taunting the English bowmen who could no longer
> fight, or could it have been the English Bowmen taunting the French
> because they could still fight. Im not to sure.
>
> Suzanne
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Hatchett, Jennifer C" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2008 6:49 PM
> Subject: Re: question re "happy face" pins
>
>
>> This is an interesting story. In Britain, I believe the equivalent
>> gesture involves the two first fingers (index and middle finger), in a
>> gesture like a peace sign only facing the other direction (with the palm
>> of the hand facing the person making the gesture). This gesture
>> supposedly developed because when longbows were the weapon of choice, the
>> English would cut off those two fingers of French archers--thus the
>> 2-finger gesture was a taunt against those who could no longer fight.
>> Similar story--I wonder if either one is true.
>>
>> Jenni
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: HISTORICAL ARCHAEOLOGY [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
>> Suzanne M. Gurenlian
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2008 10:37 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: question re "happy face" pins
>>
>> From what I know about 'flippimg someone the bird'...is that during a war
>> in
>> which guns still needed to be fired using gun powder, I believe it is, a
>> very
>> 'resourceful' group of soldiers began to chop off the middle finger of
>> their
>> captives, thusly disabling the man from shooting his weapon
>> forever...when one
>> captive managed to escape, as he fled, he lifted up his middle finger to
>> show
>> his would be captors that he had managed to get away with his
>> 'firing/trigger'
>> finger in tact...hence, F*^@K You, I managed to get away with my finger!
>>
>> Sr. Mary....so full of useful information! lol
>> --
>> It is within the boundaries of love that you discover life. Enjoy it!
>>
>>
>> Quoting "Robert L. Schuyler" <[log in to unmask]>:
>>
>>> Although I am, right now excavating a 20th century site, this
>>> discussion seems to be drifting a bit. But it is very fascinating so
>>> here goes. As we drove back from the site last week we got into a
>>> discussion of where the phrase "to give someone the bird" or
>>> "flipping the bird" comes from rather than saying just ---- you. It
>>> must be as old as the "happy face", much older, and probably does not
>>> descend from the Peace Symbol. We do, by the way, have a metal Peace
>>> Symbol on the Penn campus from the 1960s ("Above Ground
>>> Archaeology"), the only thing the Central Administration would allow
>>> the Anti-War Movement.
>>>
>>> Back to the archaeology of words and phrases - What bird ??
>>>
>>> Bob Schuyler
>>>
>>>
>>> At 08:27 AM 10/22/2008, you wrote:
>>> >I think the peace symbol is an adaptation of signal corps flags
>>> >(semaphore letters) for N and D - nuclear disarmament. It was the
>>> >symbol
>>> >of the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament.
>>> >
>>> >http://www.cnduk.org/index.php/information/info-sheets/the-cnd-logo.html
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >Daniel B. Davis
>>> >Archaeologist Coordinator
>>> >Kentucky Transportation Cabinet
>>> >Division of Environmental Analysis
>>> >200 Mero Street
>>> >Frankfort, KY 40622
>>> >(502) 564-7250
>>> >-----Original Message-----
>>> >From: HISTORICAL ARCHAEOLOGY [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ron
>>> >May
>>> >Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2008 4:26 AM
>>> >To: [log in to unmask]
>>> >Subject: Re: question re "happy face" pins
>>> >
>>> >The so-called Peace Sign is actually a Norse Rune adopted by the
>>> >anti-nuclear movement in the late 1950s. I recall seeing a group of
>>> >protestors standing
>>> >outside General Atomic in San Diego in 1958 and the signs had that
>>> >symbol.
>>> >Over time, the Rune shifted to protest war and by the 1960s it became
>>> >the Peace
>>> >symbol.
>>> >
>>> >Ron May
>>> >Legacy 106, Inc.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >In a message dated 10/21/2008 9:38:03 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
>>> >[log in to unmask] writes:
>>> >
>>> >Happy Faces and "Peace Signs" were both common while I was in the army
>>> >in
>>> >Germany in early 1969 and more so while stationed at Ft. Bliss in late
>>> >1969
>>> >and early 1970.* * I remember "peace signs" from the army in 1968 and
>>> >before
>>> >I was drafted (in 1968) back in 1967.
>>> >
>>> >:-)
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 4:16 PM, Cami McCraw <[log in to unmask]>
>>> >wrote:
>>> >
>>> > > Hi Matthew,
>>> > > -Also building on what Ron May just posted, I really think it came
>>> >around
>>> > > 1970. I know for sure I had never heard of it in elementary school,
>>> >but it
>>> > > was the 'in-thing' at some point in 6th grade, (1970-71).
>>> > > Now, maybe it was 'invented' before that, but just became popular
>>> > > at
>>> >least
>>> > > where I was in 1970. Back then with no internet and limited
>>> >television,
>>> >fads
>>> > > took a little bit longer to spread. (I'm not an archaeologist BUT
>>> > > we
>>> >are
>>> > > radio/TV/editing folks.)
>>> > > By the time I entered high school ('73), we were also beginning to
>>> >see
>>> > > these same smiley faces in various colors instead of only yellow.
>>> >(But of
>>> > > course those were never as popular as the yellow!)
>>> > > I do think it was very much tied in with the Nixon era, and wasn't
>>> >Nixon
>>> > > always flashing the 'Peace' sign on television? So yes, the smiley
>>> >face was
>>> > > tied in to 'Peace & Love and general happiness'. I believe the
>>> >'flower
>>> > > power' stuff may have started in the late-60s, so just before the
>>> >smiley
>>> > > faces. (But you are right- not much difference.)
>>> > > If anyone ever has a chance to see old TV reruns of 'The Wonder
>>> >Years',
>>> > > you'll get an accurate window into the fads of those times and even
>>> >the
>>> > > political ties, especially if you pay attention to the small
>>> > > details
>>> >in the
>>> > > show. (Folks my age won't need that, but for younger listmembers it
>>> >may be
>>> > > helpful.)
>>> > > -Cami
>>> > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/NewChronology/
>>> > > http://stretchproductions.com/RohlProducts.html
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matthew Tomaso"
>>> ><[log in to unmask]>
>>> > > To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>> > > Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 3:27 PM
>>> > > Subject: Re: question re "happy face" pins
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > I remember them from the early 70s as well. I was never quite
>>> > > sure
>>> > >> whether to symbolically associate them with flower power or the
>>> >'don't
>>> >worry
>>> > >> be happy' rhetoric of the Johnson and Nixon Administrations.
>>> >Perhaps
>>> >there
>>> > >> isn't much difference.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Matthew S. Tomaso, M. A., RPA
>>> > >> Senior Archaeologist and Project Manager
>>> > >> Cultural Resource Consulting Group
>>> > >> O: 732-247-8880 x-30
>>> > >> Cell: 908-875-0345
>>> > >>
>>> > >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >--
>>> >Smoke Pfeiffer
>>> >
>>> >Remember: When seconds count, the police are only minutes away!
>>> >
>>> >
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>>
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