Dee wrote:
________________________________
Virgin queen i
Hi all,
Dee wrote:
________________________________
Virgin queen introduction done right should get closer to 95% acceptance, b=
ut to do this you don't use rollers, you use 3dram bottles and a simple che=
ap chicken incubator. This way you don't have the smell of the workers to d=
rop your acceptance level.The incubator also allows for culling to get rid =
of queens with deformities or not up to standards wanted in body uniformity=
, and attention to race/strain details.
_________________________________
Fascinating idea, Dee. Can you share some ideas on 3 drams bottle holders? Like boring our 1 to 2 inch closed cell foam(blue board)?
BTW, do all 3 dram bottles hold a JZBZ cell cup?
Would you suggest that one could put a piece of marshmallow in the top of the jar as a release mechanism?
Juanse did suggest an additive to the smoker. Was it ammonium nitrate? I was thinking a very thin syrup with anaise oil to spray on the bees and just immediately release the virgin in splits that were queenless at least a couple days. I have been successful with that.
I'm going to have to build a new incubator or a second one to do the cells in bottles. I just use small refrigerators and put in sensitive thermostats(2) and 2 bulbs in parallel with a small fan.
I did find some 3 dram bottles on eBay. Ebay also had some 3.5 dram bottles for a better price. They were plastic with a 13/16 opening. I'll have to check the JZBZ cup size to see if it will set on top without falling in.
see ya,
k
Kirk Jones www.benzieplayboyz.com
www.sleepingbearfarms.com
greetings from Northern Michigan!
________________________________
From: BEE-L automatic digest system <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 12:00:01 AM
Subject: BEE-L Digest - 26 Nov 2008 to 27 Nov 2008 (#2008-328)
There are 26 messages totalling 900 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Nosema Ceranae in US (8)
2. Nosema hair splitting (2)
3. Nosema Ceranae in US...dead bees in feeder
4. using queen cells and timing (6)
5. The USA is in bad need of new genetics from abroad (2)
6. Nicolet queen system for raising virgins (4)
7. No varroa in Australia (2)
8. Happy Thanksgiving!
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Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 19:45:22 -0800
From: Dee Lusby <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Nosema Ceranae in US
Bob Harrison:
The editor of a bee magazine sent the information to me.
=A0=A0=20
=A0 Just an FYI....Tony Jadczak, State inspector from Maine, submitted samp=
les of
bees to USDA he collected in 1985 to check for T mites while in Maine for B=
Berry
pollination...tests recently ran show that 30% had NC back then...this just
fyi...maybe puts a different spin on colony deaths in the last 25 years....=
or
not.
Reply:
Well then, like I said with samples still on file in many places then here'=
s some more places/writings Bob you or others might want to be reminded of.=
If nothing else, you can read in your old magazines/publications many of u=
s still have,=A0and compare to what you are physicaly seeing in your hives.=
=20
=A0
Thanks for pulling this back up for me so here's more for you.
=A0
Dee-
=A0
=A0
=A0
Farrar, C.L.
1947. Nosema losses in package bees as related to queen supersedure and hon=
ey yields. Journal of Economic entomology 40:333-338
=A0
Jay, S.C.
1962. A survey of nosema disease in package bees, queens, and attendant bee=
s entering Manitoba (1963-1966) Entomol Society of Manitoba proceedings 22:=
61-64
=A0
Jaycox, E.R.
1960. Surveys for nosema disease of honeybees in Calif. Journal Economic En=
tomology 53:95-98
=A0
Lehnert, T. and Shimanuki, H
1973 Production of Nosema-free bees in the South. ABJ 113:381-382
=A0
Shimanuki, H., and Knox, D
1973 Transmission of nosema disease from infected workers of the honeybee, =
to queens in queen mailing cages. ABJ 113: 413-414
=A0
Michael, A.S.
1974 Status of the Joint United States-Canada Nosema Disease Committee. ABJ=
114:291-292, 300
=A0
Moeller, F. E.
1956 The behavior of nsema-infected bees affecting their position in the wi=
nter cluster. Journal of Economic Entomology 49:743-745
=A0
1962 Nosema control in package bees. ABJ 102:390-392
=A0
1972 Effectsof emerging bees and of winter flights of nosema disease in hon=
ey bee colonies. Journal of Apicultural Research 11:117-120
=A0
Moffett, J.O. and Wilson, W. T.
1971 The viability and infectivity of frozen nosema spores. ABJ 111:55-70
=A0
Mussen, etal
1975 Enzootic levels of nosema disease in the continental United States. AB=
J 115:48-50
=A0
Oertel, E.
1964 Nosema disease in the Baton Rouge Area. Gleanings in Bee Culture 92:42=
7-437
=A0
Shimanuki, H etal
1973 transmission of nosema disease from infected honey bee workers to quee=
ns in mating nuclei. Journal of Ecnnomic Entomology 66:777-778
=A0
White, G. F.=20
1919 Nosema disease. U.S. Dept Agric Bulletin 780, 59 pp=0A=0A=0A
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Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 20:16:22 -0800
From: Dee Lusby <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Nosema Ceranae in US
Randy
If we could figure out why your bees are more affected than mine, we might
be able to start making sense of this critter!
=A0
Reply:
Randy/Bob, not that I would say this, but I am....our honeybees and hives r=
eact to the way we manage them in the field working up and down, besides mo=
ving which changes flora, and also the way we treat and feed them. All this=
has impact on the inter/intra-relationships of all living organisms within=
our colonies that include beneficial bacteria, fungi, viruses, etc that ev=
olved together and co-exist. You cannot treat one without treating all and =
thus breaking the balance and this has been tete tete for years now it seem=
s, and reason for my stand on NO dopes in a hive, and no artificial feeds. =
You might not like it, but you cannot overcome problems with soundbite trea=
tments and research fwiw...........at least in my point of view! You must l=
ook at the whole-bee picture and not for short durations....but for the lon=
g-haul.
=A0
Anyway, just had to add that!
=A0
Dee=20
=0A=0A=0A
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Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 20:49:14 -0800
From: Dee Lusby <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Nosema hair splitting
Peter Borst:
just like you claimed for varroa mites and of course, honey bees were
in the Americas "all along" as well.
=A0
Reply:
I still claim this Peter and always will,... from analysis of files I have =
and in archives in libraries in Washington D. C.and other places. You see m=
ites are identified by point of infestation and as we go more modern, more =
breakouts/determinations seem to fall out with new names then given as we k=
eep noting differences in size (besides it time frame in so doing!), shape,=
placement, etc. As for honeybees in the Americas prior to so-called Columb=
us, well many various sites and artifacts have been found from more then on=
e early civilization here with links to bees; besides a major continent/lan=
dmass cannot split apart and all have except one!....even if man hasn't tra=
velled so much.
=A0
Dee
=0A=0A=0A
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Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 15:05:25 +0900
From: Peter Detchon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Nosema Ceranae in US...dead bees in feeder
Bob commented on dead bees in the feeder of Nosema affected hives.
Is that a common experience? If so I wasn't aware of it. I have noted when
feeding using plastic frame feeders, in some hives many bees drown in the
syrup, yet most others in the same apiary do not, and their feeders are
clean.
I assumed this was because the internal surface of some feeders was too
shiny for bees to grip and they fell into the syrup. So equipped all feeders
with plastic ladders made from "Gutterguard" mesh. Reduced the problem but
didn't completely fix it.
Am I missing the possibility/probability that syrup drowning is indicative
that these hives have a Nosema problem?
And if so, would this hold for Nosema apis, since testing has revealed that
although N.ceranae is present in some eastern Australian states it is not
present here in Western Australia, although N. apis is.
(I should add that we do not observe any extreme Nosemosis symptoms,
although variations in productivity within the apiary are usually ascribed
to other causes, perhaps in error?)
I guess I will have to drag the microscope out from under the bed, and start
testing!
PeterD
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Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 15:13:09 +0900
From: Peter Detchon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: using queen cells and timing
Fascinating post Juanse....I'm off to the ag. chemicals store straight after
lodging this reply! Between you and Peter Borst, you may have changed my
whole approach to use of queen cells in queen rearing. (I'll call into the
model planes shop for the paint on my way to get the ammonium nitrate).
You never know...I could end up laughing all the way to the bank!
PeterD
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Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 08:37:14 -0000
From: Peter Edwards <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The USA is in bad need of new genetics from abroad
Chris asked:
> a) The bees look rather like Amm, dark with narrow tomenta. Is it their
> reputation for bad temper that made the operator wear gloves?
Yes, working towards A.m.m.
They are very good tempered - these can be worked without smoke and probably
without a veil, although I do not risk that. The reasons for the gloves are
twofold:
first propolis - we do not want it all over the steering wheel etc when
moving between apiaries
second hygiene - we use soda wash to clean gloves and hive tool after each
hive, and discard the disposable gloves after each apiary.
Best wishes
Peter Edwards
beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk
www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/
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Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 23:14:46 +1100
From: Geoff Manning <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Nosema Ceranae in US
----- Original Message -----
From: "randy oliver"
> I'm wondering if it could have to do with your corn pollen, or something
> else regional.
In Australia we don't have mites. And we enjoy a mild climate. With that
out of the way I am always amazed at how little attention pollen gets on
this list.
Whenever, at least competent Oz beekeepers talk about bees, pollen is part
and parcel of that conversation. After all pollen is the source of almost
all the bees nutrition.
The boss of a leading outfit I worked for years ago, preparatory to writing
up his daily diary, would invariably ring up that night if he had not been
out with us. Always was asked the question, "what was the pollen like"?
To paraphrase an American politician-its the pollen stupid.
To adhere to the thread. We regard pollen or lack of it, as a major part of
the nosema story.
Geoff Manning
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Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 23:58:49 +1100
From: Geoff Manning <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Nosema Ceranae in US
I said amongst other things-
We regard pollen or lack of it, as a major part of
the nosema story.
And we don't use Fumigillin!
Geoff Manning
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 07:14:53 -0600
From: John & Christy Horton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: using queen cells and timing
I have always assumed that, say, a 10 day old queen cell in a hive with
queen cells that are younger would hatch out first and most likely tear down
the other cells. I have never observed it to be otherwise.
Since only a small percentage of my nucs that are recieving queen cells have
cells already started i could have overlooked the impact.
I would like to hear more on this.
I have howevre definitely noticed a tendency to not build new queen cells if
one is already present.
Juanse, Brother Adams wrote the following:
"I have found that a queen which emerges in an incubator is never as good as
one who spends her first few hours in her normal environment.....So also a
queen which has been caged for any length of time is seldom, if ever as good
as one which has never been confined-the the extent of the injury depends on
the age and condition of the queen when she was confined."
From
"Beekeeping at Buckfast Abbey" page 89
by
Brother Adams
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Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 08:32:12 -0500
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: using queen cells and timing
On Thu, 27 Nov 2008 15:13:09 +0900, Peter Detchon <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
> (I'll call into the model planes shop for the paint on my way to get the
ammonium nitrate).
I just want to correct a small but potentially misleading typo in my post. I
wrote "old based paint" where it should have been "oil based paint".
I think the oil based stuff sticks better and is perhaps safer for the
queen. Modern water based paints and "white out", for example, have weird
stuff in them.
pb
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Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 08:39:42 -0500
From: Peter L Borst <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Nosema hair splitting
Dee Lusby wrote:
>I still claim this Peter and always will,...
Well, Dee, this is where we part company. In science, as in life, one
must be willing to drop everything one believes in the face of
incontrovertible evidence. To not do so is to live in a fantasy.
Back to subject of hair-splitting, a very interesting discussion on
the "Species problem" at Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species_problem
with great references like:
Gregg JR. 1950. Taxonomy, language and reality. American Naturalist 84:419-435.
Burma BH. 1954. Reality, existence, and classification: A discussion
of the species problem.
Mayden RL. 1997. A hierarchy of species concepts: The denouement in
the saga of the species problem.
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Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 08:54:13 -0500
From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: using queen cells and timing
On Thu, 27 Nov 2008 07:14:53 -0600, John & Christy Horton
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>I have always assumed that, say, a 10 day old queen cell in a hive with
>queen cells that are younger would hatch out first and most likely tear down
>the other cells. I have never observed it to be otherwise.
Not true. Bees frequently keep queens trapped in queen cells for several
days after others have hatched, for the queen's protection one would assume,
although they may have "preferences" as we now know.
Regarding Brother Adam's comments, I have a great deal of respect and
admiration for him and what he did, but nobody is always right. As one very
experienced beekeeper once told me:
"There is a wide range of practices that you can get away with, but it is
best not to abuse your prerogatives".
Still, it is logical and reasonable to attribute poor queen performance to
sloppy queen rearing practices.
pb
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Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 09:15:08 -0500
From: Michael Palmer <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: using queen cells and timing
> I have howevre definitely noticed a tendency to not build new queen cells if
>one is already present.
I wish I could say this. I have too many virgins rejected in my
mating nucs. I give the cell the next day. I know it hatched. The
bees destroy my virgin, and raise their own. It seems strength of the
nuc...too strong leads to higher rejection of my cells, or the use of
cell protectors...same here...has something to do with it.
Sometimes I have a significant reduction in the mated queens I can
catch from any batch.
Mike
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Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 09:37:23 -0500
From: =?UTF-8?Q?Kirk_Jones?= <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Nicolet queen system for raising virgins
Hi all,
Juanse wrote:
I change from JZBZ cups to Nicolet because this latter system have a nice
tube as a queen cage so as to allow the queen to be born caged. The only
trick is take the cell out of the cup the day after emergence cause some
queen are trapped when going out after feeding in the royal jelly.
__________________________________________________________________________
I have been trying out different systems to raise virgins to install in
splits. The last spring in Florida I drilled out 2x4's to put in hair
rollers and set the JZBZ ripe cells to hatch out in the incubator. Then I
would transfer the board into the middle of a powerful hive in the second
story between brood frames and feed them.
The problem I encountered was trying to pull out the hair roller with the
queen in it. They would be in the hole and it was difficult to get them out.
I'm interested in what you have tried, Juanse. Could you send me the web
address where I could find the Nicolet system? Very interesting.
I would appreciate any input on systems to raise virgins for splits with
corresponding nuggets of wisdom gained from experience.
We get about 75% take on queen cells, sometimes as high as 90+%. The one
that don't accept the cell usually make their own queen and some of those
are stubby runts. It is time consuming to try to find the virgins at our
checkback period (about 18 days after installation is my preference)and I
prefer to wait another 5 or 6 days until they are laying and settled down.
We use laying queens for the "no-takes" to get them up to speed.
see ya,
Kirk
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Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 10:16:01 -0500
From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Nicolet queen system for raising virgins
Hi
I could write about this at length, how to make cages, emerging in
incubators, emerging in nucs, etc. But while I was looking for a nice
picture of a tube type queen cage I stumbled upon this Web Site which might
interest you.
http://www.vycage.com/
On the other hand, one has to weigh the cost of losing a certain number of
queens by introducing cells into nucs _versus_ the additional cost in terms
of time and effort trying to avoid such losses through extraordinary measures.
Beekeeping is, and always has been, about percentages, nothing is ever
perfect. One of my mentors, Shannon Wooten, told me that if you don't have
enough queens, you need to raise twice as many as you are.
In other words, plan for a 50% shortfall. Good advice in any case.
pb
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Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 10:49:59 -0500
From: =?windows-1252?Q?Mike_Bassett?= <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The USA is in bad need of new genetics from abroad
On Wed, 26 Nov 2008 23:49:28 -0000, Peter Edwards
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>I am not sure why you would let them draw out the comb - queens are happy
to
>lay in the box without it being drawn.
the instructions I got with the jenter were in German, I had them
interpreted and thats what they said to do, and to put wax on the end of
the plug. But thinking about it, the queen has no trouble laying in the
cells next to the plugs that have no wax, so I guess next year I'll remove
the wax from the plugs b/4 inserting and see if it changes anything.
thanks mike bassett syracuse n.y.
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Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 08:17:48 -0800
From: Dee Lusby <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Nosema Ceranae in US
Geoff:
In Australia we don't have mites.
=A0
Reply:
Is this your opinion or actual technical truth pertaining to mites from wha=
t you have been told or understand? I ask this for I comprehend mites actua=
lly being in Australia. Please correct me if I am wrong to thinking this.
=A0
Dee
=A0=0A=0A=0A
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Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 11:47:05 -0500
From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Nosema Ceranae in US
Dee writes: "You cannot treat one without treating all and thus breaking
the balance and this has been tete tete for years now it seems, and reason
for my stand on NO dopes in a hive, and no artificial feeds."
Happy Thanksgiving Dee and all,
Dee, I certainly understand where you are coming from with regard to
the complexity of natural balances in biological/ecological systems.
However I think it is important to keep in mind that these balances are
never static. Having to maintain a static balance between all the macro
and micro flora and fauna within the “whole” system would mean certain
failure for that system. There is considerable flexibility and resilience
within these systems. Flexibility is vital, and yet there are limits to
that flexibility as I’m sure everyone knows. That is why, in order to stay
well within the limits of what can be considered balanced, it is smart
beekeeping to do as little as you think you have to in order to manage your
bees and reach whatever goals you have set for yourself. Smart beekeeping
also means having a really good, well thought out reason for doing
something to a hive, with more than just passing consideration for the long
term implications. I think it’s really important to keep in mind also
that, everything we do in bee management has an element of experimentation
in it.
So you are always messing with the balance. You are as natural as you
think you can get away with being, but every time you make a split you are
violating nature, upsetting the balance as it were. Now, it may be that,
in the effort to control everything within the complex biological system
which is a bee hive, many have reached a point where they are doing more
harm than good, especially in the long term. But it is not necessarily
true that anything one might put into a hive that the bees wouldn’t put
there themselves is going to “break” the balance past what bees can
sustain, even over the long haul. The balance will shift, but the balance
shifted when you put your bees into a box on sheets of stamped out wax.
Gobble gobble,
Steve Noble
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Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 10:02:06 -0800
From: Dee Lusby <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Nosema Ceranae in US
Geoff,
After all pollen is the source of almost
all the bees nutrition.
Reply:
Really? What percentage? No nutrition received from royal jelly or honey? H=
ow do you view royal jelly or honey for the bees ongoing nutrition?
=A0
Dee
=0A=0A=0A
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Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 13:24:53 -0500
From: Peter L Borst <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: No varroa in Australia
Dee writes:
> Please correct me if I am wrong to thinking this.
Wrong again!
> The Australian Government this [month] announced the sentinel hive program, which will alert authorities when foreign bees potentially carrying varroa arrive, will be funded for the next two years. The tiny varroa mite has wiped out wild-bee populations across the world, most recently in New Zealand. Experts fear if it arrived in Australia, the cost of pollination for crops such as stonefruit, almonds and pome fruit could double overnight. Free pollination from wild bees could become a thing of the past. Honeybee Research and Development Advisory committee chairman Des Cannon said baited hives would attract newly arrived bees, so an extermination could be carried out by the Australian Quarantine Inspection Service. "It would be good if (the sentinel-hive program) were topped up with a baited program," Mr Cannon said. "Our effort (at keeping varroa out) has been good but if you look at what NZ spent on the South Island alone, they spent $800,000 on
surveillance."
> Agriculture Minister Tony Burke said the Government "recognises the importance of rigorous quarantine and biosecurity measures to protect our valuable agriculture, fisheries and forestry industries. The Australian honeybee industry is fortunate to be free so far of varroa," Mr Burke said.
-- November 12, 2008
-- http://www.weeklytimesnow.com.au/
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Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 07:36:56 +1000
From: Trevor Weatherhead <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: using queen cells and timing
Peter wrote
> I think the oil based stuff sticks better and is perhaps safer for the
> queen. Modern water based paints and "white out", for example, have weird
> stuff in them.
I have used "white out" or "liquid paper" as we call it for years now with
no observed problems. I think it does not stay on as long as what the paint
will do but it serves it purpose.
Trevor Weatherhead
AUSTRALIA
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Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 13:19:46 -0800
From: Dee Lusby <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Nicolet queen system for raising virgins
Kirk,
Virgin queen introduction done right should get closer to 95% acceptance, b=
ut to do this you don't use rollers, you use 3dram bottles and a simple che=
ap chicken incubator. This way you don't have the smell of the workers to d=
rop your acceptance level.The incubator also allows for culling to get rid =
of queens with deformities or not up to standards wanted in body uniformity=
, and attention to race/strain details.
=A0
D
=0A=0A=0A
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Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 09:03:31 +0900
From: Peter Detchon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Nosema Ceranae in US
Dee,
Geoff (or Trevor) can speak for eastern Australia.
Here in Western Australia we definitely do NOT have mites. We take
biosecurity very seriously. Sugar rolls testing as well as examination of
worker and drone larvae and pupae, is done as part of our annual screening
and testing procedures for a number of diseases and parasites. This
programme encompasses both commercial and non-commercial beekeepers and is
done on both a scheduled and randomised sampling basis. The program isn't
cheap, and is funded from a levy paid by all beekeepers and performed by
inspectors and laboratories from our state department of Agriculture. The
results of this testing as well as inspections of the source apiaries is
what enables AQIS (The Australian Quarantine Inspection Service) to sign the
required international health certificates for exports of Queens and Package
Bees.
So in a nutshell, when we say we ain't got mites, you can believe it.
If you need further confirmation, ask Randy, 'cos he sure looked closely for
them when he was here!!
Regards
PeterD
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Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 11:33:00 -0800
From: randy oliver <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Happy Thanksgiving!
Happy Thanksgiving to All!
I'd especially like to thank Aaron for his time, hard work, and patience in
moderating this List!
Thanks for Bee-L, Aaron!
Randy Oliver
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Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 10:30:23 +0900
From: Peter Detchon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: No varroa in Australia
Peter,
The sentinel hive programme is not new, having been in place for quite a few
years. What is new, is the Federal Government's appreciation of its value.
They have now agreed to fund it, in order to guarantee its continuation. It
was previously part funded by state departments and partly by beekeepers,
and relied very heavily on volunteers to provide bees and maintain them. As
a consequence there were some problems with maintenance of uniform
standards. Hopefully the new funding guarantee will enable further expansion
of the scheme to more points of entry and more remote regions in Northern
Australia.
Although this is a "canary in the coalmine" approach it is seen as having
value, and is only one of several mechanisms that have been incorporated in
our biosecurity efforts. Biosecurity is one of the bigger words in the
Australian language, and is on the tip of most beekeepers' tongues here!
PeterD
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Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 10:36:23 +0900
From: Peter Detchon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Nicolet queen system for raising virgins
Dee,
Wow, 3 dram bottles. Neat idea. Presumably it works for you? Have you got
any pictures you can send off-list?
PeterD
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End of BEE-L Digest - 26 Nov 2008 to 27 Nov 2008 (#2008-328)
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