-- James Fischer <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>This sort of question betrays a misconception that is
common among those who have never tried to breed a
specific trait into their bees.

jim, i would never presume to put words in your mouth...so can you please clarify?  i asked a fairly straightforward question of peter who gave an example (and hinted at others) that honeybees, when exposed to varroa, will all die without human intervention.  do you believe that if all varroa treatment were stopped (or had never started) in north america, that all honeybees so exposed in north america would die?  this is an important question.

>"breeding from the survivors" ...or any of the other amazingly non-technical approaches...

breeding from survivors is 'non-technical'?  perhaps (depending on your definition of 'technical'), but breeding from survivors is the one, the only, and the defining way in which life perpetuates from generation to generation, regardless if you are a bacteria or an elephant.  breeding from survivors (and survivors with desirable characteristics) is what agriculture _is_.  it's hard to imagine that the queen breeders you cite don't breed from survivor stock...i was under the impression that glenn at least exposed his stock to high disease pressure (although i might be thinking of another breeder...the glenn site seems to be down due to an aol thing).  

not all breeding programs are based on "survival stock"...i've had queen breeders describe the inbred lines for hybrid stock as being so weak that they needed constant feeding in of capped brood and feeding...they were unable to care for themselves.  to my way of thinking, almost anything _but_ this kind of approach is "breeding from survivors"...the question just remains, "survivors of what"?  ...could be survivors of this or that chemical/treatment..or it could be survivors of biological pressures with no treatment....i have some bees that are remarkable in that they have spent the summer traveling in an observation hive in all kinds of conditions about 1/2 the time, and with very little help.  this hive has survived considerable stress...but would the genetics be helpful for afb resistance?  i don't know, as far as i know they have not been exposed.


>All are happy to sell and ship breeder queens that are the result of significant work to test for and select for varroa resistance, and show significant resistance to varroa.

i won't comment on anyone's program, or their bees.  i will ask how far you think all of this work has gotten us.  how many treatments are _not_ being used because of these carefully bred lines?...i'm sure it's some. interestingly, i came upon this document...the fy 2003 "summary report on federal labrotory technology transfer...it included the following wrt to russian breeding program:

"A team of ARS researchers led the effort to select, test and breed Russian honeybees that would be naturally resistant to both mites.  The team also selected for high honey production to assure the value of the stock.  ARS scientists entered into a Cooperative Research and Development Agreement with a beekeeper to breed and gather information on honeybee queens for commercial production.  Now, thanks to ARS’s efforts, it is estimated that nearly 40 percent of the Nation’s 2.5 million commercial honeybee colonies are currently stocked with Russian honeybees—producing an annual honey crop valued at about $85 million, and pollinating crops valued at $6 to $8 billion.  The Russian honeybees typically produce about 10 percent more honey per colony and can survive northern winters. Treatment savings using the new bees totals about $17 million a year."

>...and explain just how unlikely it would be for any beekeeper to stumble upon success via a "breed from the survivors" approach, or get any tangible results from merely forcing the bees into a smaller cell size.

i'm sure they could explain that...but would they be right?  without naming names, there are certainly many who are not using treatments (on both lc and sc), and their bees aren't dead.  is this from breeding?  or some other factor?  fwiw, i can show you a photo of a varroa mite on a drone larva in one of dee's yards...they are not so isolated as to not have mites.


>...central claim of the small-cell beekeepers...

the 'small cell beekeepers' are hardly a homogeneous lot...there are lots of opinions....and no 'central claim' other than 'sc seems to help' and 'historically the comb size was smaller'.  yes...we have had this discussion many times....bees on islands being measured as bigger...historical accounts...dr. erickson's version of the historical size of comb...we don't need to go through this.  my point is that saying that there is a central claim that the capping time is shorter is simply not the case.  michael bush has timed it himself...and i'm unaware of how many capping times he has measured (ie, how big a database he has of his own capping time measurements...lc and sc...feral, etc).

>...one is not going to change a genetic feature like maturation
time with physical manipulation of cell size, 

maturation time is, i'm sure, partly genetic.  it's affected by temprature as well...so it's not solely a genetic factor:
http://www.apidologie.org/index.php?option=article&access=standard&Itemid=129&url=/articles/apido/pdf/2005/01/M4055.pdf
i'm not convinced either way, although i know michael bush, and if he said he measured it, i'm inclined to assume he did a thorough job of it.


>The small-cell approach is an idea that spreads easily among novice
beekeepers, beekeepers who have limited educations,

what does that mean?  beekeepers with/without a ged, or beekeepers that haven't attended 'bee school'?


>...advice to novices to not register one's hives with apiary inspectors,

i keep in close contact with my county inspector.  he inspects my hives every year (this year he said he saw one mite out of 16 hives).  i keep him very up to date with what we are doing, why, and how it is working out.  imagine...he even invited us to present what we've been working on to the entire club...hive opening and all.  fwiw, he thinks our bees are going to die...which is also what he thought last year.

>to avoid local beekeeping associations,

i regularly attend both board meetings and our general club meetings.  i do sound for all of our events where amplification is needed (i bring my own expensive equipment), and help out other members of our club regularly.  we also encourage people to join their local club (whether they are in our area or not) on our website...even people that don't want to use treatments.  i also write fairly regularly for the newsletter.

>and to keep one's bees a secret from other beekeepers. 

again, we have done a hive opening for our club just in september...several members of our club have visited our bees, and we invite all who are interested to come out and see.  many more have seen them from the road.  there are no 'secret hives'.

i don't really know who you are talking about/accusing with all this...but it's certainly not me.


>...smaller bees will be mistaken for Africanized Bees, which is utter nonsense given that several states use DNA tests to identify Africanized Bees. 

is this nonsense in all states?  or just those that use dna testing?


>...the belief system is an excellent way to turn an enthusiastic novice into an ex-beekeeper in record time, and that's the tragedy.

i've seen lots of first year beekeepers fail and give up...even second and third...but it does not seem limited to those using sc.


at this point, i'd like to bring things back to microbes...which is what i was talking about, not sc.  

what do you think the influence of the microbial culture in the hive is jim?

how important do you think microbes are in the proper functioning of the hive when compared with the genetics of the bee?

how do you think these microbes are affected by 'hard' (ie fluvalinate) and 'soft' (ie organic acids)?

do you think the microbial balance always returns to it's original composition after being disturbed?

do you think all in hive microbial cultures are equally beneficial for the bees?

i would value the opinions of a scientist on these questions...thanks jim,

deknow

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