On Thu, 8 May 2008 11:50:15 GMT, [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>can anyone show pictures/videos of hives that are as strong as the ones in the videos that they think are gentle?

I am sorry but those hives are simply not strong hives. The first one
in the video at Mendoza Canyon: five deeps. The boxes aren't even
stuck together. Almost no bees in the fifth box, no evidence of bees
working in the top box, boxes look like they were piled on top with no
regard for the strength of the colony. Fourth box, frames not stuck
together, most of the frames have NO bees on them. The frame where she
supposedly sees the queen has no visible brood. She knocks the queen
off before we can see it. She makes a "split" with the third box
without even looking at it, no inspection, nothing. This is not
beekeeping but just tossing boxes around. The bees are obviously
furious. She says the hives has 120,000 bees in it. I doubt if it has
20,000. The upward limit in a strong hive is more like 60 to 80,000 in
nay case, but who has time to count them all?

Look, this video is not a video of beekeeping the way it is practiced
generally. Nothing in the narrative agrees with what we are seeing.
The hives are not strong, the bees are vicious. I have worked bees for
decades and have taken hives apart with many times that many bees
wearing jeans and a T-shirt. If the bees were wailing at the camera
within seconds of opening up one hive, I would think there is a
PROBLEM there. I work for hours in yards ten times that size and never
have bees as aggravated as that. Furious bees are the exception and as
inspectors we are instructed not to let the bees get that out of hand.
When bees are that angry either the beekeeper has done something to
infuriate them, they are being pestered by skunks at night, or they
are naturally vicious bees. By the way, it is illegal to keep African
bees in NY State and we use the USDA as the authority on
Africanization. So I would advise against bringing these bees to NY
State.

Look, this matter is deadly serious. Any experienced beekeeper who
looks at those videos will tell you the same thing. The reason most
are silent is because they know that this will quickly escalate into a
flame war. I am VERY SORRY I got involved, but I am tired of false
statements being issued out of ignorance. Everybody knows Arizona is
completely Africanized, has been for almost 20 years. It is simply not
plausible or feasible to keep European bees in an Africanized area
without instrumental insemination -- like what Page did at Tuscon. And
if you allow bees to raise their own queens, like in the video, you
have absolutely no control over the lineage, and you get the bees from
the area. African bees. If you want informed expert opinion I can get
it for you. If you want a fantasy based fairy story, you will have to
go elsewhere.

These are my own opinions based on decades of beekeeping experience
with hundreds of beekeepers California, New York, Chile and elsewhere.
I have done bees for most of my adult life and if you think I am
mistaken in what I am saying, then so be it. I APOLOGIZE for any
discomfort I have caused or will cause by this discussion and have
tried to keep it to the facts in the interest of the advancement of
beekeeping and of knowledge in general. I would really like to bow out
at this point and allow others to present their views if they wish.
But please do not regard lack of contradiction as some sort of tacit
approval. Some people simply have no stomach for a contentious debate,
and are too busy with more important work in any case.

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