---- "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> ...also, lots of references cited in our paper at:
> http://www.BeeUntoOthers.com/NoBeeIsAnIsland.pdf
An interesting read . . . but there are some inaccuracies in there and some analogies that simply don't work.
> note that there are over 8000 microorganisms found in a healthy bee hive...each with it's own tolerance for acids, temp, osmotic pressure, etc.
There are trillions of organisms found in a hive. There are prolly thousands of varieties in any given hive and prolly more than 8000 discrete species that could potentially be identified in any hive. A good number if not the vast majority are likely found outside hives as well. I think this is more likely what you meant.
The same thing could be said about a house. Remember - just because you find something somewhere doesn't always mean it is part of some complex mutually beneficial arrangement (it also doesn't mean it isn't). It might just be there. Or it might be there to the detriment of other organisms that it is feeding on, competing with, parasitizing etc. And these relationships can change over time and with circumstances and perspective.
> a few other interesting facts i've come across:
>
> gilliam cites other studies that show irradiated pollen inoculated specifically with lactic acid bacteria produces a beebread that is unattractive to the bees, as well as lacking in nutrition (it is postulated that yeast is important here).
OK - so bees should not bee treated like cattle. OK, we can all agree to that. No silage for the bees.
>think of a small pond "fertilized" to the point where there is an algae bloom that chokes out other organisms.
Like when you are fermenting bread, wine, beer, sourkraut, bee bread etc. to a desired end point with a small number of select fermenters being selected for and others against? A product fermented in a controlled manner is a product, everything else is merely rotting. And then the question is: Do either of these acids, when used as per instructions, adversely affect the fermentation and nutrition of pollen stored in combs? Would Ozone?
> 2. in addition to the fa test we did, we also tested oa. we saw similar results.
About that test, I have a couple questions:
How uniform were the drops you used?
What concentration of FA and OA were in each drop?
How did you verify this?
What was the pH of the yeast suspension before and after the addition of the acids?
The osmolarity?
Is the activity of bread yeast and it's susceptibility to alteration in pH similar to that of the organisms that act on pollen to make bee bread? Or is their only similarity that we use the word bread when referring to either of them?
How did you select the temperature at which you held the yeast solutions? (S. cerevisiae works best at about 30°C (86° F). There is little activity in the range of 0°-10°C. Above 37°C yeast cells become stressed and will not divide properly. Most yeast cells die above 50°C (122°F).- From wikipedia) Being temp stressed could certainly make them more susceptible to the rather large sounding (with the limited data available) dose of acid you hit them with.
How did you select the sugar concentration you used?
What was the osmolality?
Do changes in osmolality affect the susceptibility of yeast to the inhibitory effects of these acids or pH shifts?
I won't go on. But I think it is important to understand when an experiment in a "paper" is well designed and laid out and relevant . . . an when it is perhaps not.
> 3. in a recent nova episode profiling E.O.Wilson ("lord of the ants"), he detailed an experiment where he fumigated a bunch of (i think mangrove) islands. the goal was to determine if/when the islands would return to their previous levels of habitation and biodiversity. he said that the number of organisms came back to the same levels...but the specific organisms were not the same.
Makes sense. Particularly on an island. If you eliminate somethi9ng, and there is not a reserve population, they are not coming back. Given that a beehive is grand central station, and the proclivity of honeybees to share their gut contents with one another, does the analogy stand?
I suspect it does, but to less a degree than you are likely to believe. Of course, we will have to await the data.
No bee is an island indeed, there is too much sharing, drifting, flying about.
Keith
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