ISEN-ASTC-L is a service of the Association of Science-Technology Centers
Incorporated, a worldwide network of science museums and related institutions.
*****************************************************************************

At 17:25 10/01/2007, Amanda wrote:
>This forces me to conclude, considering the probability curve,
>that it is very unlikely that god claims have any merit. Atheism (which
>literally means 'without theism' and *not* "claims god doesn't exist") is
>therefore a reasonable position to hold.

After so much useful progress has been made in 
our discussion, I simply can't let this pass, 
Amanda. Previously you preferred to avoid 
describing the position of science in terms of atheism or agnosticism.

At 21:26 03/01/2007, Amanda wrote:
>I prefer the descriptive word "oblivious".

...and I agreed this is a fair description of 
science in relation to religion, though it is 
much closer to the Oxford Dictionary definition 
of agnosticism than it is to atheism.

Compact Oxford English Dictionary 
http://www.askoxford.com/dictionaries/compact_oed/?view=uk

atheism

• noun: the belief that God does not exist.

— DERIVATIVES atheist noun; atheistic adjective; atheistical adjective.

— ORIGIN from Greek a- ‘without’ + theos ‘god’.

agnostic

• noun: a person who believes that nothing can be 
known concerning the existence of God.

• adjective: relating to agnostics.

— DERIVATIVES agnosticism noun.

You argue, Amanda, that atheism is a reasonable 
position for a person to hold, if they are 
unwilling to trust anything other than that which 
can be observed and measured. Again, I agree, even though I am not an atheist.

But the personal beliefs of individual scientists 
and science communicators are not the issue here. 
The issue is the public's perception of the 
position of SCIENCE with respect to beliefs which 
a high percentage of our target audience hold 
very dearly indeed. The central territory of 
these beliefs does not conflict with science, 
only certain peripheral add-ons such as 
'intelligent design' and 'young-earth 
creationism'. According to the final page of 
Darwin's Origin of Species, even belief in a 
creator need not conflict with science (which is 
why I always carefully refer to 'militant creationism').

Much as I would like to argue the case for a 
concept of a Creator and Sustainer far more 
beautiful, comprehensive and intellectually 
satisfying than the travesty currently promoted 
by some and trashed by others, I am not doing 
that here. I am just trying to show that this 
huge science communication problem is not going 
to be solved if we allow our purely personal 
views on religion to damage public confidence in the impartiality of science.

T H Huxley, Darwin's original (and best?) 
bulldog, originally coined the term 'agnostic' 
precisely for this purpose, merciless as he was 
with those who argued against Darwinism in the name of religion.

To win this fight, we first need to persuade 
insensitive 'crusading atheists' on the Darwinism 
Side to identify their targets more accurately 
and stop this unacceptable collateral damage. 
Then we can work to convince the public what we 
have agreed in this discussion, that the core 
beliefs of the Creation Side need not conflict 
with science. The majority of the tacit support 
for the ID Campaign would quickly evaporate.

There is growing Christian opposition to militant 
creationism, for example see: 
http://www.speroforum.com/site/article.asp?id=5750&t=UK+Christians%2C+humanists+against+creationism

Darwin also has his church mice. We are breeding 
fast and effectively nibbling away inside 
structures that resist all other attacks. Don't let anyone squash us.


[log in to unmask] * http://www.interactives.co.uk
*
Give people facts and you feed their minds for an hour.
Awaken curiosity and they feed their own minds for a lifetime.
*
Ian Russell 

***********************************************************************
More information about the Informal Science Education Network and the
Association of Science-Technology Centers may be found at http://www.astc.org.
To remove your e-mail address from the ISEN-ASTC-L list, send the
message  SIGNOFF ISEN-ASTC-L in the BODY of a message to
[log in to unmask]