Hi Bunny,
Hey, there may be a fly in YOUR ointment, but not mine! Arundo donax is not native, it's a "modern" Spanish import. :)
Bob Skiles
~~~
"Smithers! Get that bedlamite to an alienist." ~ C. Monty Burns
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bunny" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 11:43 AM
Subject: Re: carrizo = phragmites in SoCal?
> The fly in the ointment of this discussion is that there are two kinds of
> cane commonly called "carrizo," both of which are known to grow in Southern
> California. These are the comparatively thin reed, Phragmites australis
> (Cav.) Steud [ = P. communis Trin], and the so-called "giant reed," Arundo
> donax. See Thomas H. Kearney, Robert H. Peebles, et al, "Arizona Flora"
> (Berkeley, Los Angeles, London: University of California Press, 1960; p.
> 89), and, for ethnobotanical details, Richard S. Felger and Mary Beck Moser,
> "People of the Desert and Sea" (Tucson: The University of Arizona Press,
> 1985; pp. 305-07, 309-15).
> Felger goes with "australis" rather than "communis," and I suspect his
> is the more up-to-date and currently correct nomenclature for the ordinary
> reed.
> Bunny Fontana
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Thomas Wheeler" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 9:54 PM
> Subject: Re: carrizo = phragmites in SoCal?
>
>
>> Hi Bob,
>>
>> In Alan Brown's translation of Juan Crespi's 1769 field journal Brown
>> translates the following:
>> Esta canada es de muchissima frondosidad y de mucha cienega mui verde de
>> carrizos, tules y ostros muchos yerbajes, que le vimos una buena sanja con
>> mui buena agua que corrida algo entre los mucos matorrales que tenia.
>> as follows:
>> "This is a vastly lush hollow, having a great deal of swamp, very green
>> with reed- grass, tule-rushes, an many other kinds of plants, where we saw
>> a good-sized channel with very good water with a bit of a flow, there
>> among the many weeds" (Crespi 2001:358-359).
>>
>> Brown translates the term reed(s) as carizzas in several other points of
>> encounter during Crespi's journey through California. Thus this is one use
>> of the term that seems to differentiate cat-tails(?) (Typha sp.) from
>> bull-rushes or tules (Scirpus sp.). In this instance Phragmites does not
>> seem to be identified.
>>
>> Tom
>>
>> Crespi, Juan
>> 2001 A Description of Distant Roads. Original Journals of the First
>> Expedition into California, 1769-
>> 1770, edited and Translated by A. Brown. San Diego State
>> University Press, San Diego.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> At 10/10/2006 08:12 PM, you wrote:
>>>Thank you for the replies ... I KNOW that the Spanish word "carrizo"
>>>exists in numerous placenames across the whole southwest, but what I'm
>>>asking is when the Spanish were looking at & naming things "carrizo" was
>>>it the phragmites australis reed, specifically, that they were referring
>>>to in SoCal ... or could it have been some other (simiar ?) reed?
>>>
>>>Bob Skiles
>>>~~~~~~~~~~
>>>Yes, reason has been a part of organized religion, ever since two nudists
>>>took dietary advice from a talking snake. -- Jon Stewart
>>>
>>>
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "Gerald Carbiener" <[log in to unmask]>
>>>To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 9:18 PM
>>>Subject: Re: carrizo = phragmites in SoCal?
>>>
>>>
>>> >
>>> > And the Carrizo Plain in San Luis Obispo County.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > In a message dated 10/10/2006 7:07:29 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
>>> > [log in to unmask] writes:
>>> >
>>> > Yes Virginia, uh, I mean Bob...such reeds are known to have
>>> > grown...and
>>> > still are growing (I presume) in S. CA.
>>> > http://www.calflora.org/cgi-bin/species_query.cgi?where-taxon=Phragmites
>>> > %20australis&ttime=1160531280
>>> >
>>> > There's a Carrizo Gorge, Carrizob Badlands, Carrizo Creek (& Valley),
>>> > etc. in San Diego/Imperial counties.
>>> >
>>> > (apparently Carrizozo, NM got its name for the abundance of such reeds
>>> > in that area)
>>> >
>>> >>-----Original Message-----
>>> >>From: HISTORICAL ARCHAEOLOGY [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
>>> >>Behalf Of Bob Skiles
>>> >>Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 4:17 PM
>>> >>To: [log in to unmask]
>>> >>Subject: carrizo = phragmites in SoCal?
>>> >>
>>> >>... the term "carrizo" in the quotation below (and as used by
>>> >>the Spanish chroniclers in western Texas) referred to the
>>> >>phragmites australis reed ...
>>> >>
>>> >>i've seen the word "carrizo" used by early Spanish chroniclers
>>> >>referring to source material for the cane arrows made by the
>>> >>Indians in the area of the southern California missions, too,
>>> >>which clearly (by contextual descriptions of the arrows)
>>> >>refers to some type of cane or reed, but I'm not sure it
>>> >>referred to phragmites ... did phragmites australis (or
>>> >>communis) grow along streams in southern California?
>>> >>
>>> >>Bob Skiles
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>> In James L. Haley's <italic>Apaches: A History and Culture Portrait
>>> >>> (</italic>University of Oklahoma Press, 1997), the author says the
>>> >>> Apache of New Mexico and west Texas made two kinds of
>>> >>arrows, hardwood or cane.
>>> >>> Hardwoods were "preferably mountain mahogany, Apache plume, or
>>> >>> mulberry, and some Chiricahuas became known for arrows of
>>> >>desert broom
>>> >>> (<italic>Baccharis sarothroides</italic>)." (p. 109) Cane
>>> >>arrows were
>>> >>> made from carrizo, and included a hardwood foreshaft four to six
>>> >>> inches long.
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>~~~
>>> >>"Smithers! Get that bedlamite to an alienist." ~ C. Monty Burns
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>
>
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