Steve Schwartz wrote:

>Robert Peters continues replying to me replying to him.

I didnt know that it is forbidden to reply to you when you reply to me.
 [Nobody said it was, or implied it.  -Dave]

>I want to address mainly one point he made: that Furtwaengler, Orff,
>and Strauss could "easily" have emigrated.  I really don't know how easy
>it would have been.  I don't have the facts for that time.  On the other
>hand, I live right now in a country which has gone pretty far to the
>right, and there are disturbing signs of theocratic Fascism.  Can I
>"easily" emigrate?  Not really.  Who the hell would take me and my wife?

Come to Germany.  I am against the Bush government and you are welcome
in my house.  You can listen to my Strauss records, we can fight and
afterwards have a good German beer.

>What about the rest of my family I leave behind?  Do I have the *money*
>to emigrate?  My country's policies in several areas horrify me.  The
>only thing I believe possible to me right now is wait it out, hope and
>work for something better.  I'm not optimistic.  Right now, I can write
>this sort of thing with impunity -- that is, right now no one will toss
>me in prison.  That doesn't mean later this won't happen, and you really
>don't want to be put in an American prison, particularly one in Louisiana.
>It seems to me that I'm not a follower of anybody.  On the other hand,
>I will do everything I can do to stay out of jail and to protect my wife,
>my father, my sister, my brother-in-law, my nephews, etc.  etc.  It's
>not heroic, but it's not particularly dishonorable, either.

Steve, the Bush government is terrible.  But it is different from the
Hitler government.  When Strauss took a good look around him he saw a
country without free elections, free press, with torture, imprisonment
of political opponents and an ever-growing hatred against Jews.  Americans
who oppose Bush will see the guy leave the stage in four years, they can
walk around and demonstrate against him.  Communists couldnt do this in
Nazi-Germany.  Strauss chose to stay.  Leaving a country is never easy
but I think - like Thomas Mann who actually left - that sometimes it is
the only honourable option.

>>>Yeah.  And he wrote the Olympic Hymn to glorify Aryan athletes at the
>>>expense of athletes of "inferior races." Again, what I've read in Del
>>>Mar leads me to conclude he did it to get the Party off his back.
>>
>>That is your conclusion. My conclusion is different.
>
>I refer you to the three-volume study by Norman Del Mar.

So there are three conclusions: yours, mine and Del Mars.

>>The usual line of arguing.  Now we all know that Strauss was a rich man,
>>famous.  He could have emigrated with the people he wanted to protect.
>>Other composers acted so, he did not.  He preferred to stay in a country
>>which made a travesty of human rights.
>
>Yes, but if you follow the usual line of arguing plus your own admission
>that the country made a travesty of human rights, what is so hard to
>believe that reprisals wouldn't have been taken?

Because the guy was a token VIP.  He was world-famous and could be used
- like naive Furtwangler - to add some cultural polish to the regime.
It was non-VIP composers who had to take the reprisals, not people like
Strauss who were so easy to use by Goebbels.

>>>First, you're talking in hindsight.  A lot of people did leave, but a
>>>lot of people were politically more astute than Strauss.
>>
>>Sorry but in times of tyranny it is a sin not to be politically astute.
>>By the way, "youre talking in hindsight" is one of the typical lines of
>>arguing against critics of Nazi Germany.  I know since I am German.
>
>And I've lived in Germany, though I can't claim to know it as well as
>you.  The only thing I can tell you is that you have a big book of
>sinners.  Mine's a little thinner.

That may be so.  Again I refer to Thomas Mann who loathed his fellow
authors who stayed in Germany.  I can completely understand him.

>>>Second, he accepted the mostly-figurehead position in the early days
>>>of the regime.  He very quickly regretted it, although not enough to
>>>antagonize that regime.  Even so, his private letters were read, and
>>>he was warned.
>>
>>Dont you think that it was relatively free of danger for him to resign
>>from this post?

Yes.

>Obviously not.  See Del Mar.

What would have happened?  Prison?  Torture?  Concentration camp?  No,
some sort of house arrest for VIPs like Strauss.  Again: if you chose
to stay in German you inevitably got involved in the deeds of this
horrible regime.  And Strauss chose to stay.  Now why should I defend
him?

>>And dont you think that the regime was pretty nasty
>>even in its early days?
>
>It was *less* nasty.  Even the Nuremberg Laws were less nasty than the
>camps.

Oh, there were camps from day one.  There were imprisonment and torture
from day one.  It took a politically naive or ignorant guy (like Strauss)
not to notice all this.

>>No, Strauss was driven by vanity and naivety
>>to accept this post and never corrected this mistake.
>
>Again, see Del Mar.

See the facts.

>>I didnt mean to see a hero in Ullmann (I dont believe in heroism). I
>>wanted to say that Orffs "ordeal" (three days questioning) has to be
>>seen in perspective (gas chamber).
>
>So if Orff had been sent to the gas chamber, it would have been morally
>better for him?  This I don't understand.

No. Orff was not in danger to be sent to the gas chamber.  But surely
you admit that Orffs ordeal of three days questioning is nothing compared
to being gassed.

>>Sorry but I think that you do the very thing you accuse me of.  I am
>>talking about the killing of composers because of their very "race" -
>>and you are talking about the minor inconvenience of having an opera
>>banned.
>
>I am talking about the constant threat of death.

I dont buy this for Strauss.  He surely didnt live under "the constant
threat of death".  Jewish composers did.

>That composers, writers, artists, and even non-composers, non-artists,
>etc.  were killed for something they didn't do, but because of what they
>were, created an atmosphere of terror.  What about the night of the long
>knives?  These were *Nazis* who were killed by other Nazis.  I think all
>of those men you dismiss were aware they and their loved ones could have
>been erased on a whim.  Are you old enough to remember that time?  I'm
>not.  I'm getting this second- and third-hand.

Yep, we all do. We have to form an opinion. I have formed mine, you have
formed yours. I dont see Strauss as a victim but as someone who highly
profited from this regime.

>...  However, I don't make the equation that worth of music = worth of
>character.  I tend to think that creating art is largely a skill.  If a
>composer writes a lousy piece, he's not necessarily an SOB, and an SOB
>can write a great piece.  I'd prefer to keep character out of it, since
>I don't know where it comes into creation, and concentrate on the
>brilliance or the flaws of specific works.

I have a different approach.  Every thing we communicate shows us, our
character, our beliefs, our wishes, our hopes.  Why shouldnt it be
different with music?

Robert