----- Original Message -----
From: <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 3:00 PM
Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Super Varroa


> Regarding the FANTASTIC discussion between Keith Malone in Alaska, and Bob
> Harrison in Missouri concerning "SUPER VARROA" vs. feral bee survival.
>
> Why aren't both of you "young men" in Reno, NV at the annual meeting of
the
> ABF
 HI George and All
First I think they are busy. Talking to researchers and understanding the
REAL complexities is different issue.
How can you talk about Honeybee Genetics , without reading Tom Rinderers
book on the subject. Its deep.
It took me 3 years of study on genetics myself before I could really follow
the book.


> Now, Keith or Bob, before you "fly off the handle", why don't you swap
homes
> for
> a year
> The vast amount of verbiage from both of you (and I admire each of you)
> provides
> no solution to the varroa problem for the average reader of the Bee-L.
 Now lets look at the real problem.. It is genetics.  I wonder why Bob does
not mention the white line of Russian stock. I know the answer.It was
Russian queen aceptance to the italian bees. I asked Mark Winston about
testesting for the pherome problem. The answer was too many variables in the
queen pheromones of any given race. Then he sent me hard copy of all of his
work on the subject.Then I started to learn about the real complexitys of
only one part of the genetics of the honeybee.We are not talking about just
a few organic acids and percentage of each. I cheated and would put some
Italian queen substance on the queen in a cage and watch. The workers would
stay around her for about 45 minutes. Then acted as if she was not in the
hive.
 Now the real big picture. and George knows it.  Because of the variance of
the penotype in the genes, bees will act differently in a changed
enviornment. I watched that in a small scale last year. Sea level , 2,000
feet and at 4,000 feet  with the same Russian stock I have been working with
since they first came out. I have a very good mix of genes.  I have been
putting the info in my computers for years. I can track about anything. ,
even infared shot taked by satilites. of my different areas. Its good to
have connections at the U and sell my honey to the Microsoft people in
Remond for the last 10 years.
  To talk about mite control with just a russian stock is a joke. You can
have some Russians that will work well in California , but not good in
Washington. I know from experience. We are too young in the process to have
a cureall for the mite with Russian stock. No matter what it is. Two years
ago I did 180% requeening in one year with russian stock. Why? Hygenic
behavior.
I test for it all the time.  If they are not hygenic they are gone. Last
summer I found some mites in drone brood and a couple on some workers.. I
went back 2 weeks latter and I could not find a mite anyplace. Not in drone
brood or on the bees. But they were all down under the screen. All my hive
are on screens.
 Science and the researchers need more money to work  this problem out.
Russian stock is the first step. But the genetics of the stock needs to be
looked at very closly.Gene loci is very important. Not just having the gene.
So if someone thinks they have the magic bullet with Russian stock to fix
all the mites have a lack of knowledge of genetics. It takes a long time and
work to get a very good fix. Bees are very complex and so are the mites. A
lot of work has been done on the mite. You have to understand your
adversarry.

> I end this L-O-N-G diatribe with a hope that all readers will depart from
the
> so-called "findings" of perhaps highly successful and very fine gentlemen
in
> the problems of beekeeping (which are MANY), and rely upon scientific
endeavor
> by bee scientists, IN SPITE OF THEIR UNDERFUNDING.


> As in most other things of life's ventures, KNOWLEDGE about a subject that
is
> gained by scientists usually winds up as the "winner" after many conflicts
> along
> the way to success.


> George Imirie
 Thank You George
Roy Nettlebeck

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