> I don't do any of this, I am simply stating that treating a package of
> bees is a useless measure. The fact they are a package already is just as
> effective as any treatment.

This is an interesting statement, especially in light of the fact that many
beekeepers have reported receiving package bees that had sufficient varroa
loads to crash the first season.

> You don't really need to shakedown into a new hive. Anything you can do to
> break the brood cycle is effective.

It is true that splitting and caging queens, etc. are reported to have the
effect of reducing varroa, but we have long broodless periods up here in the
Great White North, and, although our climate does thus reduce varroa
pressure, we nonetheless do experience sufficient varroa levels that we must
monitor and, usually, treat.  Usually we find it prudent to do at least one
treatment annually.

Moreover, I understand that swarms have been reported to carry sufficient
varroa to be a concern.

> Doing a shakedown is most effective because not only is
> the brood cycle broken, but it also take some time for it
> to ramp back up.

Similar to a natural swarm, I should think.

> Yes it effects production because you are essentially emmulating
> a package installation, ableit it might be several pounds of bees
> instead of just 2 or 3.

When we made packages from our hives in October, we averaged eight pounds of
bees per hive.  I imagine that in summer, we would have as much as twice
that.

> You throw away the brood and render the wax.

That is a cost many of us would be loathe to accept.

> BUT since its
> your own operation and bees aren't being shipped, you have
> the luxury of determining when the bees are to be shaken,
> instead of waiting until april, you can shake them down in
> february, or even january if you live in subtropical USA.

True.  every region is different.

> I know you live in canada and so you might be forced to wait
> until march, but if you feed the bees back some combs of
> honey for raising brood, your bees will be ready for the
> upcoming season.

As I say, most hives have already bee broodless for a month or several
months by then, so the only difference would be the disruption.  In many
cases, I fear that it would be fatal, since the bees are still wrapped and
very vulnerable to stress by then.  Some viable hives are getting quite
small by March and April.

> In sweden there are beeks, that shake the bees down onto
> fresh foundation just as winter sets in after brood production
> stops. The bees then draw brood comb when they begin
> brooding again in the fall. Perhaps this is an option for you
> since sweden is as harsh or harsher a winter environment.

I'd like to know more about this.  In my own experience, any major
disruption of the brood chambers after August has consitently resulted in
serious, even total losses of colonies over winter.

> This effectively emmulates a package that doesn't have to go
> through a late spring buildup and is just as ready and mature
> as a hive that is over-wintered without having been shaken.

I'd like to see this theory tested in a controlled local situation before I
adopted it.  It is also appears very labour intensive, disruptive and
weather-dependant compared to proven cheap alternatives.

> My hives don't suffer from varroa troubles, as much as I
> know most people hate to hear it. The organic methods
> outlined by the OrganicBeekeeper groups works very very
> well.

I doubt people hate to hear it.  I think most of us are very interested in
these ideas.  I, for one, am a member of OrganicBeekeepers and read it every
so often.  I must confess though, that there is too much chatter there for
me to read it all the time, and we rely on people like yourself to report
anything important, mentioned there or in other lists and forums here on
BEE-L, hopefully with URLs or quotes to make finding the material easier.

> Out of a total of 34 hives last year, I ended the season with
> 30, went into this season with 30, and just split my strongest
> hives up to 45 hives just last week as the citrus flow ended.

Sounds almost the same as my situation.  I have the same number, the same
survival, and will be doing the same thing, except we have no citrus flow.

FWIW, we have not treated most of our hives for 24 months now, but Medhat
checked them all for mites and treated the few that were most heavily
infested so they would be sure to survive the winter and be available for
the rest of the observation. One hive had 84% phoretic varroa!   Most by far
were around 1%, including the spring package bees from Australia that
started, if we can believe the Australians, at zero.  See
http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/2004/diary110104.htm.

> I should have split them much earlier, but I had other
> family/household related issues that associated with moving in
> december came first. I hope to end this season with 80-120
> hives from swarm captures and splits. I will if nothing gets in
> the way this year be performing two splits in late january and
> again in february/march.

Sounds like we are like twins, except that I have to wait for May to split.

In summary, my impression from reading is that using shook swarms for varroa
control, like many other methods can be useful in some situations, but has
not been proven effective enough to be sufficiently reliable for all
purposes.  Apparently, it is good enough for some people, but I am unaware
of good data, and the labour arequired and the effect on the colony build-up
are not negligible.  Until I see before and after figures, I would wonder,
if, as in my case, the varroa are simply failing to build up as expected for
some unknown reason, and that the shook swarming is actually not doing much.

Furthermore, regional or management effects may influence the results.  I
don't know.  I do know that bees can handle higher varroa levels than I ever
imagined -- the 84% hive is still looking good after a hard winter, although
it did get some Apistan as an emergency measure -- and that we may need much
less treatment than we previously thought.  I suspect that the treatments
have been far worse than the mites in many cases.

If you have measured your varroa levels, I would be very interested to
compare them to mine, and know what you find is a tolerable level for your
region and methods.

At any rate, my personal suggestion would be that anyone planning to try
this, do so on a limited scale and measure the varroa load before and after
before relying on it too much.

In my experience many beekeepers judge the condition of the bees by a
glance, rather than measuring carefully, and are later surpised to see their
hives all crash when the mites finally get ahead due to some weather or
other random factor.  We hear the glowing reports while the bees thrive, but
there is a sudden silence when the hives die.

allen

A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/
Today: More on my Styrofoam hives

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