In message <001501c2d81a$5d6bf260$2fac58d8@BusyBeeAcres>, Bob Harrison
<[log in to unmask]> writes
>I find it funny that you English are so attached to your black bee that
>Brother Adam found (in his opinion) to not be even close to being the ideal
>bee.
In my opinion Brother Adam was wrong. It is a great pity that the
adoration of his many excellent contributions to beekeeping glosses over
this basic error. If he had taken the view that any native stock could
be improved, his contribution would have been even greater and adaptable
to any country. However, he went down a breeding blind alley.

In our climate it does well. I and a colleague regularly get averages of
160lb from static apiaries in areas where there is no agricultural
forage. I have been complimented by Bee Inspectors on the good temper of
my bees. Whilst I rarely take the risk of working without a bee suit, we
do normally work without gloves. Of course my bees and those of my
colleagues would not come up to your standards, given their nervousness
and our own very variable climate here in Cornwall, and we are working
in such high densities of beehives that we have to constantly select out
those of poor temperament. Yes, people who don't select can have bees
you cannot get anywhere near without armour plated suits, and I have
read many posts from the US about similar bees.
>I do wish I had saved at least one hive of those bees to always remind me
>why I eliminated those from the gene pool .
>
>Dave said:
>Something close to my heart is genetic and allelic diversity... In UK we
>have a natural background of bees with a history of around 10,000 years in
>our geographic location.
>This broad based gene pool has been modified somewhat over the last 180
>years or more, by imports and selective breeding.
>
>*Somewhat* should be changed to *largely modified* after tracheal mites
>*almost* wiped out the original black bee in the early 1900's and heavy
>importation began.
It depends on which part of the UK you are. In the SE, continual
replacement with Italian stock (from whatever source) maintains a high
Italian component to all bees. In other parts we do have near native
stock. I look forward to Professor Ratnieks results on genetic testing
to resolve this issue. Certainly his previous work with Pederson has
demonstrated virtually pure A.m.m. stock from the few selected areas he
took samples from.

In any case, the original black bee was not almost wiped out - another
myth promoted by Brother Adam. It seems to have been mostly Italian and
hybrids that succumbed and mostly in the SE of the country. Further west
and north, there was much less damage. Sensationalism in the press made
it seem worse. Remember the association of CPV and TM means that it was
more likely that it was the symptoms of CPV that were labelled Isle of
Wight disease and that it was overcrowding in the hives due to the
unusual weather conditions of the time that led to both diseases
proliferating. (Recent discussion in BEE-L about the increase in disease
problems attributed to TM when colonies with significant TM were moved
north have not addressed this aspect). The native bees, being less
prolific (not less susceptible according to recent studies) and being
more able to fly in adverse weather conditions would not have had the
high density of bees in the hives for so long.
>Dave said:
>This paucity of alleles is further reduced by modern breeding projects that
>are 'quick and dirty' with little or no attention to 'quality control'.
>
>If you are refering to work done at the Baton Rouge Bee lab then you simply
>do not understand the project.
I doubt Dave meant that, but he can answer for himself.
>Dave said:
>We in UK and mainland Europe are attempting to retain the biodiversity
>levels that we have fallen to and even increase or re-establish them if
>possible, but bringing in US stock would dilute and/or displace some of our
>natural diversity.
>
>Will your English bee survive varroa without help? Shouldn't you be leaving
>some untreated and breeding from varroa tolerant bees?
Yes some of us are looking for varroa tolerant bees with intent.
> Would not the SMR
>trait be a help to your English black bee?
Yes, it might have it if we look for it. We have found quite a few hives
with low enough mite fall to be hopeful. I am thankful to Harbo for
discovering it and promoting it. I *desperately* want us to get ahead of
this game so people don't start looking at a non-native bee as the
saviour of us all. The grass is greener syndrome means people will not
take responsibility for improving their own bees and would rather let
someone else do the work without thinking of the consequences. I am
personally enabling a project to develop "varroa tolerance" into our
bees over the peninsula of Cornwall. I am also hopeful we might
influence our neighbours further up the SW peninsula. Certainly other
groups affiliated to BIBBA are doing the same throughout the UK.
>I love to kid Dave (and others) about their beloved  English bee but Dave
>knows I respect Dave and all my English friends.
Of course we know that and we have had many lengthy and friendly
exchanges on all manner of topics including sight of an excellent video
which helps us see US beekeepers at work in totally different
circumstances.
>We have the same type of discussion over pro's and con's  in the U.S.
>between Carniolan & Italian beekeepers and Ford and Chevy owners.
The major difference is that we have a honeybee native to the UK. (I
don't want to get into a debate about the tropical stingless bees being
called honeybees!) It is versatile, hardy, productive and good tempered
where the beekeeper does the right selection - that means observation,
selection, rearing queens and drones and culling and replacing less good
stock. It does not mean replacing queens every year interestingly, since
some of our best performers are 2, 3 and even 4 years old. And I mean
160lb averages in an area where the typical hobbyist is pleased with as
much as 40lb. There seems to be little discussion about racial types -
if a beekeeper has carniolan, Buckfast or ligustican bees, they tend not
to disclose or discuss harvests, feeding or disease levels. Ligusticans
in particular tend to die out in our climate and perform poorly.
Beekeepers often report an improvement in harvests after 3 generations.

Temperament is another matter. This is another reason why not to import.
The price we pay for anothers imports of a particularly quiet bee is
increased bad temper in the later crosses, whilst the importer continues
to import oblivious or uncaring about the knock-on effect of his drones.
--
James Kilty

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