Dee wrote:
 the proof that our bees are not AHB is the fact that
> neither the USDA nor other excellent labs and scientists in
> Europe have identified our bees as africanized of any sort,
> with the exception, in the beginning, when we helped with
> samples of our bees in defining the accuracy/ parameters of
> FABIS, which flunked and said our small black bees were
> africanized,

Although Tom Rinderer used fabis early on the fabis system  has been
crtiscised by several researchers. Guzman-Novoa a Mexican bee scientist is
one of the biggest critics of using morphometric measurements.

On the other hand Professor Kerr was the first  to use morphometric
measurements ( which Daly refined)and considered the system accurate.

Dewey Caron in his book says " Validation of the accuracy of using
morphometric measurements to ID bees has been confirmed experimentally."

> There has been no DNA done to pinpoint what our bees are,

Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) really makes all other forms of ID (FABIS) antique
in my opinion and the method I would use on your bees. The same method used
to convict criminals AND also free inocent people convicted of crimes they
did not do.

Dee wrote:
> No official statewide surverys were ever done in Arizona
> for AHBs either before, or after de-statuatorizing the
> books by either the USDA or the state of Arizona.

No statewide surveys have been done in any state to my knowledge. The USDA
AHB map is simply updated and each county blacked out when a documented AHB
find has been made. Many counties were pronounced AHB by the FABIS method
(probabbly most).

> Even now Dr Rinderer says in ABJ, July 02 issue page 480,
> only 9 of the 15 counties in Arizona were AHB according to
> him.

As you say they are not looking. Dr. Hoffman said all counties in Arizona
should be considered AHB which means in my opinion if a survey was done of
the *feral* bees in all counties Dr. Hoffman believes she would find a
documented AHB case in each county. I suspect many more counties in west
texas would be blacked out on the USDA map if the USDA was looking.

> The USDA never declared Arizona 100% africanized on paper,
> as one can see by this in the current ABJ.

The Arizona state Africanized Honey Bee Advisory Board decided that the
africanized honey bee was not quarantinable early on and elected to pursue
an educational campaign instead .


> The declaration of 100% africanized in Arizona,was done by
> Mr Kelly, Director of the Arizona Dept of Agric, following
> de-statutatory regulation of the books, as a parting gift
> to our industry.

I thought you said Arizona had never been declared 100% Africanized on
paper?

> As for a map showing the highest concentration of AHB in
> the country. Well, IT SHOULD!! For the FIGURES ARE FLAWED.
> Why???

This is a discussion list and I truly wish I was not discussing with a
friend.  The facts are  not in my opinion flawed.  Your bees may not be AHB
but with the amount of hives you run I can't believe (in my opinion) that
many do not contain bees with AHB mt DNA. Indeed your bees do not sound like
AHb from your talking about your bees and from Allen Dick writing about his
observations. Although your bees may not be aggressive they *may* carry the
genetic material (AHB genes) to be aggressive in another setting  or handled
by beekeepers of less experience than you or Ed (only my opinion).

> Also, did you know that the first 2-3 years, all ahb finds
> were near or next to beeyards setup on smaller combs. Yet,
> why no comparison of this or noting in surveys of official
> record???

Dee is pointing out here (for those not understanding on the list) that AHb
is universially considered to be 10% **smaller** than  European bees. Dee is
implying that possibly mistakes were made because her bees and AHB are
exactly the same size. She raises a valid argument.

In Texas at the Austin, Texas ABF convention we were given a measurement  on
back of Paul Jacksons business card. Mr. Jackson is the Texas state bee
inspector for those on the list not familier with the name. The card showed
4.9mm cells per inch and  was to be used to measure comb to tell if a feral
swarm comb was AHb or if a hive which had been taken over by AHB was AHB by
the size comb which was being drawn. 4.9mm IS the excepted cell size  of AHB
and the size starter foundation used by those keeping bees in Africa.

> Ahbs in Arizona. I really don't think so, not like you do!

The first two human stinging deaths were in 1995 and the bees were
documented  by dna  AHB.

> for I know the political history of the state for this
> subject, and I will only believe when I see the DNA of our
> yards showing it, which I do not think can be done. All
> they were looking for was something different. This was
> said many times. Different by sizing! Different by colour!

Sizing and color are excepted methods of bee ID around the world. As I
posted above morphological analysis accuracy has been confirmed to a high
degree by laboratory DNA analysis. Although FABIS is only as good as the
persons opinion doing the analysis the FABIS system can only be said to be
less accurate than DNA but not totally inaccurate.

DuPraw (1965) according to Ruttner (1975) ,was unable to delimit  scutellata
from capensis by wing venation (Hive and Honey Bee 1992 pg. 36) Both DePraw
and Ruttner had no problem with ID between all other races and AHB using
wing venation.

> but they forgot DNA was still developing and now we will
> wait until we officially find out! Then we will know for
> sure.

I agree and hope the tests of your bees are negative. I like discussing the
issue but want to remain friends and only point out the other side of the
issue for BEE-L.

AHB will not stop me from keeping bees as far as aggression goes. I will
simply kill all aggressive queens like I currently do. I check mark a few
hives every year to requeen the next spring because of aggressiveness. They
are not a big problem for me to work but they do upset the other hives when
working the  apiary. I always work those hives last in the yard .

capensis traits could end my beekeeping. I currently see no answer  for bees
with capensis traits. Although we have yet to establish the magnitude of the
capensis trait problem in Arizona like Mike A. posted all it takes is one
worker with capensis   traits to get the cape bee problem started in the
U.S.

Bob