Mike Leghorn <[log in to unmask]>:

>Actually, I think that the Eroica was somewhat of a tribute to Mozart.

And the little rascal of LvB wanted us to believe that he wrote it for
Napoleon!!!.  Now I understand why did he rip off the cover sheet...

>For one thing, I think that the complexity of the last movement of
>Mozart's 41st provided the "proof of concept" which gave Beethoven
>the courage to embark upon the complexity in the development of the
>1st movement of the Eroica.

The formal complexity at the 1st movement of the Eroica is related to some
specific structural issues of the classic sonata-form scheme.  I don't see
what does it has to do with the finale of Mozart's 41, which is mainly a
big fugue in quadruple inverted counterpoint.

>Also, Beethoven used four notes in the last movement in a similar way that
>Mozart used four notes as a basis for intensely complex counterpoint in
>the 41st.

Those four notes at Mozart's 41 are, as you know, the first notes of
an entire theme, and they are not exactly the basis of the counterpoint
(there are at least another 3 fugue subjects).  I think that Mozart used
those four notes to simulate a sort of "second theme", perhaps in order to
have more "breath" for long developmental sections, that's the reason why
they are so conspicuous (i.e:  due to a *formal* --rather than strictly
contrapuntal-- reason).  The first four notes at the theme of Eroica's last
movement seems more notorious than the rest of the theme itself, simply
because they were subject of a more detailed variation work, OK, but this
is very frequent in *all* Western music.  In fact, it's possible to quote
a lot of music passages in which four note cells are very notorious and are
subject of complex development:  Mahler's 1st, first (and last) movement,
Haendel's "And with his stripes we are healed" (Messiah), Mahler's 8th
(first part), Josquin's "Mille Regretz", Clemens non Papa's "Vox in Rama",
Mahler's 10th, first movement, Brahms 4th, first movement, etc, etc, etc.
I would dare to say that none of those passages were inspired by Mozart,
precisely...

>Beethoven, much later in his career, used four notes again as a basis for
>counterpoint, in his late String Quartets, but this time, the four notes
>were taken directly from Mozart 41st.

Why???.

>Actually, the exact match can be found in the 3rd movement of the 41st,
>towards the end of the trio (B section), where Mozart uses a variation
>of the four notes of the last movement.

An exact match doesn't means that Beethoven took the theme from this work.
Coincidences do exist, and this seems to be the most probable explanation.
Rememeber that those four notes at Beethoven are just a part of a longer
theme, which has its own character.  Beethoven used to derive works from
other guy's themes, but I think improbable that he would wanted to derive
a theme from a four note cell (even if the original owner was Mozart).

Pablo Massa
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