Please allow me to start in this post with telling a funny happening:  I
missed my first Wagner debate!  Some erratic command in my server could
not cope with arriving messages from the listserver, so I unsubscribed in
middle of December going on holiday, to spare Dave a fat bunch of bouncing
errormessages every day.  But now that is fixed, and here I am again, and
my blood is aroused by teh Wagner bashing - to take up the discussion
again.

Zeev Schor <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>There is no doubt (at least in my mind and in the minds of other Israelis)
>about Wagner strong antisemitic feelings and his hatred of the Jews, and
>their place in music.

But I at least have strong doubts about the antisemitic meanings of those
feelings.  Remember also that Wagner had many Semitic friends.  Even
Cosima, if not others, so at least thought herself that she was jewish.
Did not Richard know about that??

And Zeev Raphael <[log in to unmask]> writes:

>I suppose all the arguments of the "anti-Wagnerites" are true.  Wagner was
>an anti-Semite, and the Nazis loved him.

Zeev Schor <[log in to unmask]> adds to that, meanwhile quoting Simon Weil:

>Adolf Hitler embraced Wagner and his writings.

It doesen't matter if Hitler of any other nazi wrote 100'000 pages hailing
Wagner!  Some people seems to think that such a fact as nazi admiration is
reason enough to doom the subject.  May I ask you a question?:  If some neo
nazis hailed You in their writings, would you find it ok to thereby get
associated to them as a supporter?

And for Weil; sure it is a right thing that people demand justice,
and I have nothing against his work for forcing the justice upon former
nazicriminals.  But when he gets so fanatic so he starts hunting people who
lived loooong before nazism, I think he is wrong out!  I think you also see
this get a little ridiculous.  I however rather want to see his writing as
an attempt to explain how nazism arised and which the circumstances were
that allowed it to take root in the society.

>Simon Weil continues:
>
>"Wagner, said Hitler, had really proclaimed the eternal tragedy of
>human destiny. He was not merely a musician and a poet; he was the
>supreme prophetic figure among the Germans. He(Hitler) had come early
>to Wagner, by chance or by the disposition of Providence. He had
>discovered, with almost hysterical excitement, that everything written
>by that great man that he had read was in agreement with his innermost,
>subconscious, dormant conviction." (Hitler Speaks Rauschning p226
>1940)

Speaking of composers; had Hitler known about the rabiat antisemitism of
Tjajkovskij, Mussorgskij or Balakirev he had indeed found much better
heroes than Wagner.

>"Whoever wants to understand National Socialist Germany must know
>Wagner." (Quote in The Rise and Fall of The Third Reich William
>Shirer.)

What utter nonsence.

>their attitude towards (or more exactly
>against) the public playing of Wagners' music in Israel is understandable,

If that is understandable, their attitude for the public playing of say
Mussorgskij is a mystery, because he does much more clearly and outspoken
represent antisemitism.

>Much has been said and written about Wagner and The Jews. To anyone who
>wants to go deeper into the matter I would advise to read Mr. Simon Weil's
>writings in his WEB Books.

I would say that depends what you want to know.  Perhaps it can in itself
explain why an innocent man gets the reputation of being a nazi, meanwhile
providing fundamental insights in the israelis feelings for that sheep in
wolvesclothes...but, again, I doubt strongly it gives a particulary
true-to-source image of a sensitive Richard Wagner.

Mats Norrman
[log in to unmask]